Cubase 10, Windows 10 and multi-core (14+ cores)

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Re: Cubase 10, Windows 10 and multi-core (14+ cores)

Post by Aaron B »

Thanks for all this valuable information Fabio, I don’t know a lot about why vsti’s and cpu intensive plugins needing different resources. I was going to buy a very expensive i9 9980x
Set up but after seeing the results of what gigabyte achieved with the Ryzen 3950x / AORUS 570X master 16gb of 3200 ram oc to 3733 and the mobo oc to 1.412 v stable with the 360 liquid cooler this seems to be a cheap setup that smashes everything 🤔 I’ve never used AMD before... when I start a mix I have GA5 / breaktweaker / Kontakt / massive / spire ect... and at the end of a mix I usualy have all my vsti converted to audio and all the plugins in off line mode and a lot of izotope neutron 3 and ozone 9 masking tracks treating drum busses ect which is where I’m maxing out my cpu atm for instance I put ozone 9 bass house preset on my master and it used 90% of my cpu..
So I’m wondering do you think the Ryzen 3950x would be ideal for this type of DAW usage ?

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Re: Cubase 10, Windows 10 and multi-core (14+ cores)

Post by Steinberg »

[Removed assumption that didn't stand the test of time]
Honestly I still have to see how our 3900X does in the real world. If your aim is to keep more instruments 'live' at the end of the mix, it might do really good.
In general, big mixes with many FX don't really need too many cores, with big VSTi templates you can certainly get more out of these CPUs. Also, CPU hungry plugins benefit from high-speed CPUs, as usually their load cannot be spread across cores.
Your case seems like a bit of all of this.

I have all Intel-based PCs at home and never used AMD before as well, but have a mid-range AMD 3700X at work - still have to do some serious test, but can't see any difference in behaviour and the performance is on par with my Intels.
The project I mentioned previously uses exactly half the resources that it uses on the 4th Gen Intel (8 core 3.60 vs 4 core 3.50, make sense doesn't it :-) ) and equals the i7-8700k (6 core steady at 4.29 with TurboBoost). Also good behaviour with HT on and HT off.

Plugins that are very CPU intensive prefer speed :-)
The i9 9980x is a great CPU, but runs at 3 GHz base, a single very heavy plugin could use most of one core and you'd be back to square one with 90% use of the CPU.
I'd recommend to think a bit about both usage and specs, have a look at the benchmark by SCAN posted previously (please check the difference with FX and VSTi in relation to the latency) and compare that to your needs / workflow.

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Re: Cubase 10, Windows 10 and multi-core (14+ cores)

Post by Aurélio »

Fabio Bartolini wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 1:21 pm
Hi Aurélio,

it should not be necessary to disable one core, especially with that CPU.
I actually dealt with quite a few systems built around an i9-9900K and this is the first case where disabling one core helps.

Curious about this, I'm sending you a PM if you don't mind.
Hello Fabio, Guys,

I'm sorry for delayed aswer.
Fabio, I'll aswer you PM too, thanks for asking BTW.

Well, with 7 cores on my system, instead of 8, I'm actually getting slightly less CPU realtime spikes.
But let me try to explain it better.
I used to have (or intent to) my system at 192khz with the lower latency possible (128) I have a thunderbolt RME fireface +, or at least 96Khz (at 64ms).
I realize that I got a lot CPU spikes running plugins at this sample rate, but the actual CPU from the system is running at 20% at maximum, so I don't think I should get spikes, right?

I'm open to send any system data to be analysed If you guys need

Thank you

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Re: Cubase 10, Windows 10 and multi-core (14+ cores)

Post by Steinberg »

Hello, I'll follow up via PM.

The comparison VST Performance in Cubase vs CPU Performance in Windows is not 1:1.
If you raise the buffer and lower the sample rate by degrees, you should see VST Performance getting closer to CPU performance. If you leave the sample rate alone and only change the buffer, you'll see how CPU performance changes much less wildly than real-time (VST) performance does.

If you're using such high sample rates, there are a few things to keep into consideration. Attached you find two images of the same project, 48k and 192k (64 vs 256 buffer, totalling a bit less than 7ms latency).
This is a full mix project, only audio, no VSTi, 120 plugins. Still plays back fine at 192k 128samples, which is the lowest setting allowed for me, also when recording 12/18 tracks at the same time. CPU performance in Windows stays at 34% at 192k and 18% avg. at 48k (but the VST Peformance reading is almost three times higher for 192k in Cubase)

If you have already optimised your PC, maybe have a look at the plugins? There are some which are indeed intensive - last times I've seen this one-core-maxed, it had to do with a mastering multiband plugin being inserted on the channel that was being recorded... at 32 buffer size... you don't want to do that :-)
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Re: Cubase 10, Windows 10 and multi-core (14+ cores)

Post by Steinberg »

By the way, the pics come from the Ryzen 7 3700X (8/16) system I have at work now.
Performance is pretty much in line with the i7-8700K system (6/12, but a tad faster).

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Re: Cubase 10, Windows 10 and multi-core (14+ cores)

Post by Boybin26 »

Hi,

Am about to get a crossgrade for Cubase 10 Pro on windows. Any idea if there are any GPUs I should avoid/get? Have been reading past forums and it seems like there might be likely spikes audio wise. Help is much appreciated.

Best Regards

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Re: Cubase 10, Windows 10 and multi-core (14+ cores)

Post by Aaron B »

I’ve done a little bit of research and it seems the amd is better than nividia because of the drivers and it seems as long as you are using an app that doesn’t require massive GPU performance the drivers are more important than the quality of the card ? 😳🤔 I’ve gone with an amd 580 bla bla for the upcoming 3950x I hope I made the right decision

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Re: Cubase 10, Windows 10 and multi-core (14+ cores)

Post by Aurélio »

Scanproaudio recommends ASus RX480 4G

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Re: Cubase 10, Windows 10 and multi-core (14+ cores)

Post by theRoyal1 »

Threadripper Announcment on the 5th and release on the 16th!!
I'm waiting til the 1/2020 WRX release but exciting times ahead.
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Re: Cubase 10, Windows 10 and multi-core (14+ cores)

Post by Ayumi »

Hello everyone!
I am waiting for my 3950x system at the moment and was wondering if the registry fix can still be obtained somehow, as I am still on Cubase 9.5. I tried to write a PM to our Moderator but I am not allowed, apparently since I am a new user :? .

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Re: Cubase 10, Windows 10 and multi-core (14+ cores)

Post by deadpoet »

Wondering about the same thing... my 3950x parts should arrive by December 10. Contemplating on making it a Hackintosh if indeed this is a problem.


On the other hand: there must have been dual Xeon users with 7+ cores before, didn't anyone complain then?


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Re: Cubase 10, Windows 10 and multi-core (14+ cores)

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Re: Cubase 10, Windows 10 and multi-core (14+ cores)

Post by theRoyal1 »

Its inexcusable that there is a core limitation and Hdpi limitation on a "Modern" DAW.

My next workstation build is happening in Jan/Feb and I doubt this will be resolved by then so I may have to move on.
I need a DAW that will not limit my performance and graphics. Working in a 4k environment unhindered is imperative going forward and being able to maximize a processor to it's full potential even more so.
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Re: Cubase 10, Windows 10 and multi-core (14+ cores)

Post by mozart »

theRoyal1 wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:42 pm
Its inexcusable that there is a core limitation and Hdpi limitation on a "Modern" DAW.

My next workstation build is happening in Jan/Feb and I doubt this will be resolved by then so I may have to move on.
I need a DAW that will not limit my performance and graphics. Working in a 4k environment unhindered is imperative going forward and being able to maximize a processor to it's full potential even more so.
+1!!!!!!
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Re: Cubase 10, Windows 10 and multi-core (14+ cores)

Post by Ayumi »

Is there a consensus that this issue is fixed / not fixed in Cubase 10.5 now at least?
Im certainly not spending 160 bucks on an upgrade that has no features I need and isnt up to scratch regarding the processor its running on.

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Re: Cubase 10, Windows 10 and multi-core (14+ cores)

Post by dr »

Ayumi wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:17 pm
Is there a consensus that this issue is fixed / not fixed in Cubase 10.5 now at least?
Im certainly not spending 160 bucks on an upgrade that has no features I need and isnt up to scratch regarding the processor its running on.
A consensus - not the best yardstick to measure tech issues :)

it's not fixed - they have found a workaround - and it's not a workaround that gets maximum use out of the CPU (assuming you have more than 14 cores)

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Re: Cubase 10, Windows 10 and multi-core (14+ cores)

Post by etchell »

Found this, look for the information about CPU rotation

https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/t5/ ... -p/1002699?
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Re: Cubase 10, Windows 10 and multi-core (14+ cores)

Post by dr »

etchell wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:19 pm
Found this, look for the information about CPU rotation

https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/t5/ ... -p/1002699?
...and that's exactly why "consensus" isn't that useful when it comes to fixing tech issues :) basically unrelated to the issue here
Last edited by dr on Thu Dec 05, 2019 8:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Cubase 10, Windows 10 and multi-core (14+ cores)

Post by Ayumi »

dr wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:43 pm
A consensus - not the best yardstick to measure tech issues :)

it's not fixed - they have found a workaround - and it's not a workaround that gets maximum use out of the CPU (assuming you have more than 14 cores)
Sorry for the confusion, I was being sarcastic because I couldnt find an official response by Steinberg about this and all I saw was users discussing the issue with varying degrees of insight and factual accuracy.

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Re: Cubase 10, Windows 10 and multi-core (14+ cores)

Post by Jorge Ruiz »

From the link etchell posted above:
"CPU rotation – A CPU may have multiple “favored” cores. To provide better performance and reliability, we’ve implemented a rotation policy that distributes the work more fairly among the favored cores."

It would be nice if Fabio could comment about how can this new Windows feature affect Cubase performance in the foreseeable future.
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Re: Cubase 10, Windows 10 and multi-core (14+ cores)

Post by msy »

So DAWbench has now quit using Cubase.
We need an official statement from Steinberg.
Feel a bit tricked right now. I was on the verge of not upgrading from Cubase 9.5 and go all in on Bitwig.
I have, among many others, just bought a 16 core/32 thread AMD Ryzen 3950x system. It will arrive next week.. and reading about these issues NOW, is not funny. I thought Steinberg fixed the issues.
No problem in other DAWs like Reaper and Bitwig, its not a Windows thing.

Reading that Steinberg doesnt even have proper test benches for the latest AMD systems makes me feel a bit worried that Cubase will not be optimized for "true" multicore systems..

I hope I am wrong here.
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Re: Cubase 10, Windows 10 and multi-core (14+ cores)

Post by Ayumi »

Fabio is sick at the moment, so we need a bit of patience. @Deadpoet (the guy from gearslutz?, wraith here hi :P), write him a PM if you need the fix later.
msy wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 2:21 am
Feel a bit tricked right now. I was on the verge of not upgrading from Cubase 9.5 and go all in on Bitwig.
First, congrats on also getting your hands on a 3950x!
Am I interpreting this correctly, you upgraded Cubase already?
I am personally wondering to install a second OS on my machine when it arrives next week, if the C9.5 hack-fix creates issues with other software I find impossible to deal with. It might not be a bad idea either, since it creates a bit of a closed space to work with... not sure yet though. Maybe this would be a last-resort for you, too. Annoyingly C10.5 I think doesnt work with Win7 anymore (...), but I guess Win8 would work for you?

I asked Fabio to check the thread when he is better, maybe he or someone else at Steiny can chime in in a bit about how the official position is.

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Re: Cubase 10, Windows 10 and multi-core (14+ cores)

Post by st33l »

This thing is by far the most important thing for me that steinberg should fix.
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Re: Cubase 10, Windows 10 and multi-core (14+ cores)

Post by Steinberg »

Hello,

ASIO Guard has been designed specifically to take advantage of virtual cores and on modern PCs it should not be disabled... unless one needs to work around problems with "VST3 prefetch-unaware" applications or other rare cases (honestly, I can't think of any at the moment).

The core of the topic is that the engine is implemented to allocate time-critical processing, like tracks that are being recorded/live-monitored, to the physical cores (regardless of the amount); while the rest is processed on the more relaxed ASIO Guard path. You could skew a DAW-comparison by record-enabling and live-monitoring all tracks of a huge template in Cubase/Nuendo (thus allocating all processing to the physical cores only and 'losing' a good deal of performance).

This is not really intuitive I have to admit, but Cubase / Nuendo can indeed use any amount of cores.

When disabling AG, one might want to test how disabling HT in BIOS works for them, the performance loss might be small, especially when dealing with low latency - the performance with low buffers might even benefit when using a huge amount of not very fast cores. It also might make sense to disable AG on CPUs not providing HT (here you could even see a slight performance boost with AG off).

It would take tens of pages to detail every possible case, so I'll quit here - with the info above you can hopefully make up you mind and apply it to your specific use.

P.S. The fact that this is how it is currently implemented doesn't mean it cannot be changed, but changing the scheduling service and using other multimedia libraries (which indeed exist) is a long-term strategy, a huge architectural change.

P.P.S. How "CPU rotation" might apply to Cubase should be reviewed by an engine developer and it would be possible to provide a meaningful answer only after extensive testing on several systems and under different conditions.

P.P.P.S I re-read this a few times and is hopefully as accurate as I believe, but I'm not 100% fit - if I find anything to correct, I will afterwards.

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Re: Cubase 10, Windows 10 and multi-core (14+ cores)

Post by bun »

Fabio Bartolini wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 1:02 pm
P.P.P.S I re-read this a few times and is hopefully as accurate as I believe, but I'm not 100% fit - if I find anything to correct, I will afterwards.
Thank you for this information, as some of it is new to me, and get well soon...

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