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Cubase 10, Windows 10 and multi-core (14+ cores)

Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:31 pm
by omniphonix
mikejm wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 8:37 pm
Fabio, can you please clarify exactly what this change should or shouldn't allow? Exactly how many computational threads are allowed now? Can a large scale CPU be expected to be used fully? eg. AMD Ryzen Threadripper 2990WX with 32 core and 64 thread? Or is this just a "fix" to throttle Cubase so it only uses a certain percent of the available threads and no dropouts occur?

...

So I can only hope you have found a total solution between the two of your companies. Otherwise, I would like to know what you suggest people do long term in order to fully use these big processors. If this is expected to work with Cubase fully, I will order one of these processors and can post test results in a few weeks. But I need to be clear on what to actually expect. I don't want to buy a $2000+ processor for $800 worth of performance.
Be warned about the architecture of AMD's latest multi-die CPUs. Scan Pro Audio has already shown how this configuration is not ideal for real-time audio applications. The inter-core data transfer in the interposer presents delays compared to on-die and essentially results in NUMA like a multi-socket workstation. The same reason multi-socket is not always ideal for pro audio. See the articles:

http://www.scanproaudio.info/2017/08/14 ... 20x-1950x/
http://www.scanproaudio.info/2018/08/24 ... repeating/

Re: Cubase 10, Windows 10 and multi-core

Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:44 pm
by omniphonix
Fabio Bartolini wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 2:11 pm
Microsoft won't change it, as this would have 'system-wide performance implications' (quoting Pete Brown here) and as mentioned previously "the long-term solution Pete talks about is something totally different and requires an engine re-write with different APIs", and this is not something that can be done quick and without very extensive testing.
Fabio, are you saying that this "engine re-write with different APIs" is what we got with Cubase 10 or is this some interim step to get to that point?

Re: Cubase 10, Windows 10 and multi-core

Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2018 6:28 pm
by polynasia
omniphonix wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:44 pm
Fabio Bartolini wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 2:11 pm
Microsoft won't change it, as this would have 'system-wide performance implications' (quoting Pete Brown here) and as mentioned previously "the long-term solution Pete talks about is something totally different and requires an engine re-write with different APIs", and this is not something that can be done quick and without very extensive testing.
Fabio, are you saying that this "engine re-write with different APIs" is what we got with Cubase 10 or is this some interim step to get to that point?
No and no. This is what needs to be done, to fix the whole thing (or better said: this had to be started already very long time ago).
Apparently decision to do so is still not taken yet - C10 only tries to improve on the current problem.

Re: Cubase 10, Windows 10 and multi-core

Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:41 am
by Fabio Bartolini
polynasia wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 2:53 pm
Is there any way to influence/reduce amount of prefetch threads, e.g. by structuring the project/busses/channels in a certain way?
No. Cubase Pro 10 is capable of spawning prefetch threads in different amounts, let's say dynamicaly... or asynchronously.
It's possible to define it in a different way, via the switches I previously mentioned. However, we're at the point where I can't provide more details.
Special cases should be individually discusses with Support via the proper means.

Re: Cubase 10, Windows 10 and multi-core

Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 11:44 am
by Jorge Ruiz
Fabio Bartolini wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:41 am
No. Cubase Pro 10 is capable of spawning prefetch threads in different amounts, let's say dynamicaly... or asynchronously.
It's possible to define it in a different way, via the switches I previously mentioned. However, we're at the point where I can't provide more details.
Fabio, does this mean that we can expect new improvements related to multi-core in the coming Cubase 10 updates?

Re: Cubase 10, Windows 10 and multi-core

Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 11:54 am
by Fabio Bartolini
Hi Jorge,

no, the fine tuning I was referring to is already in place, but we (at support) are waiting for a more detailed documentation on how to actually configure the switches correctly.
This does not exclude further improvements, that's something that needs to be done constantly :-)

Re: Cubase 10, Windows 10 and multi-core

Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 2:44 am
by polynasia
Hi,

so I did some tests with my recent project (started in Cubase 9.5).
I could not observe any difference b/w C9.5 and C10 for this project, wrt dropouts/overload.
Overloads at same time in both versions (skips Audio and or automation in that case)

- i7900x, 10 core HT, GTX970, Win10 1809, SSD, Cubase10, RME babyface, all latest drivers/versions
- Project is loaded, will only run hassle free with AsioGuard High and 1024 samples buffer
- will not work with AG low/mid
- Several instances of Omnisphere2, Avenger, Geist, Effects on every track, some grouping, lots of sidechaining (to trackspacer, pro-c2)
- Load meter is 100% for average, ~0% for realtime, disk spikes
- Project plays (fine) without crackles (very few sometimes) in that state. If further things are added, it will show audio dropouts in both Cubase versions

Cheers

Re: Cubase 10, Windows 10 and multi-core

Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 9:26 pm
by vinark
polynasia wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 2:44 am
Hi,

so I did some tests with my recent project (started in Cubase 9.5).
I could not observe any difference b/w C9.5 and C10 for this project, wrt dropouts/overload.
Overloads at same time in both versions (skips Audio and or automation in that case)

- i7900x, 10 core HT, GTX970, Win10 1809, SSD, Cubase10, RME babyface, all latest drivers/versions
- Project is loaded, will only run hassle free with AsioGuard High and 1024 samples buffer
- will not work with AG low/mid
- Several instances of Omnisphere2, Avenger, Geist, Effects on every track, some grouping, lots of sidechaining (to trackspacer, pro-c2)
- Load meter is 100% for average, ~0% for realtime, disk spikes
- Project plays (fine) without crackles (very few sometimes) in that state. If further things are added, it will show audio dropouts in both Cubase versions

Cheers
How much is the cpu load with this project?

Re: Cubase 10, Windows 10 and multi-core

Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 12:53 am
by polynasia
Cubase meter shows ~100% Average load continously, and 50-60 RT load when playing back
10 (20) Cores seem to be working b/w ~20-40% each in task manager

---
I made another weird observation: freezing one single track (Omnisphere 2.5) in this project does the opposite of easing the resources. The project becomes unplayable (only dropouts, i.e. will not even playback something, meters only flicker). Maybe any hints on this?

Re: Cubase 10, Windows 10 and multi-core

Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 1:23 am
by sonic74
polynasia wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 12:53 am
I made another weird observation: freezing one single track (Omnisphere 2.5) in this project does the opposite of easing the resources. The project becomes unplayable (only dropouts, i.e. will not even playback something, meters only flicker). Maybe any hints on this?
This could make sense only if you used a hard drive from the 90s :D

Re: Cubase 10, Windows 10 and multi-core

Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 2:38 am
by GeoMax
I originally thought I was not experiencing any issues after upgrading to 10 Pro when I turned hyper-threading back on my 10core CPU, but something changed since then. I think a Windows 10 update may have broke something. If I do not disable hyper-threading, I get random pops and spikes. I don't have time to fiddle around with it, so I just am leaving HT off for now.

Re: Cubase 10, Windows 10 and multi-core

Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 5:13 am
by Verda Lumo
Not used versions of Cubase 9-9.5. Tried to return to Cubase 10 Pro. I observe, like many here, the problem with random jumps of RealTime Peak, which after 40-50% of ASIO Average loads give clicks and spikes. The system is fully optimized, the latest drivers for all equipment are installed. The situation is slightly improved by disabling hyper-threading support in the BIOS. But does not solve the problem as a whole.
My system: Windows 10x64 Pro v1809, MB ASUS P8Z77-V, Intel Core i7 3770K 3.5Ghz, 16Gb RAM, ASUS Dual-GTX1060, Cubase Pro 10, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK261
I would not like to give similar examples, but I do not observe a similar problem in other DAWs. I also use the latest versions of Studio One 4, Reaper, Reason 10, Cakewalk BandLab. Therefore, I can say with confidence that the matter is in Cubase. In terms of performance and optimization, unfortunately at the moment it is inferior to them all. I look forward to future updates and solutions to these problems. Otherwise, figuratively speaking, why do you need a Ferrari, if it does not go! Good and good luck to the development team, I know that it is not easy for you now.

Re: Cubase 10, Windows 10 and multi-core (14+ cores)

Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 2:50 pm
by Jorge Ruiz
In my experience, getting real-time peaks is also related to having the GUIs of some effects open, in particular spectrum analyzers (Voxengo SPAN is specially prone to causing high real-time loads). This improves a lot if you disable hyper-threading, as it seems to give more time to the graphics environment.

Re: Cubase 10, Windows 10 and multi-core (14+ cores)

Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 6:24 pm
by Ivochkin
disable record button on channel to remove realtime peaks. you ll see the difference

Re: Cubase 10, Windows 10 and multi-core (14+ cores)

Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 7:16 pm
by Jorge Ruiz
Ivochkin wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 6:24 pm
disable record button on channel to remove realtime peaks. you ll see the difference
Yes, I knew that. Doing this effectively brings ASIO Guard into active mode, so it improves the performance as the system then plays at the additional latency dictated by ASIO Guard. Anyway, in my particular system, this still is not enough to avoid getting real-time peaks if Hyper-Threading is active and SPAN GUI is also showing. However, replacing SPAN with TDR Nova (only for the spectrum analyzer part in full screen mode) really does the trick. It seems that Nova is less demanding on the CPU when displaying its analyzer.

Re: Cubase 10, Windows 10 and multi-core (14+ cores)

Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2018 12:36 am
by waxxy
im confused is it better to have asio guard enabled or disabled?reason why im asking is im getting advice not too use it because it causes audio glitches but some say its better performance if i do use it.

also how do i tell if i have hype threding enabled or disabled?i never got a reply before from steinberg when i asked.

heres my system info--
intel core i7-5820k-3.30ghz
32gb ram
windows 10

Re: Cubase 10, Windows 10 and multi-core (14+ cores)

Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2018 12:44 am
by waxxy
does system virtual memory paging help ?ive just checked and my computer is set at 2048mb total paging for all drives and thats way below the recommended 4978mb size.i was wondering if this could affect cubase performance.

also will setting my computer to adjust for best performance be much better?i had it set too let windows choose whats best for my computer before.one thing ive noticed is the graphics are less clear when set to best performance..any help

Re: Cubase 10, Windows 10 and multi-core (14+ cores)

Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 1:23 am
by waxxy
bump

Re: Cubase 10, Windows 10 and multi-core (14+ cores)

Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:37 pm
by Jari Junttila
There´s no need to have virtual memory(just stresses drive and taxes cpu), if you have plenty of RAM. 16gb is enough, even 8gb

Re: Cubase 10, Windows 10 and multi-core (14+ cores)

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:18 am
by st33l
Jari Junttila...really....i dident know that. I usually let windows decides this. Maybe i should take away this viritual memory then?

Re: Cubase 10, Windows 10 and multi-core (14+ cores)

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:59 pm
by bun
st33l wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:18 am
Jari Junttila...really....i dident know that. I usually let windows decides this. Maybe i should take away this viritual memory then?
As far as I know it's better not to touch these settings and let Windows manage it.

Re: Cubase 10, Windows 10 and multi-core (14+ cores)

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:44 am
by uarte
Fabio and other Steinberg mods/devs: Any idea whether or not this might make a difference in an upcoming version of Windows 10?

"New Windows 10 update enables you to load “potentially thousands” of plugins in your DAW"

Seems like this won't have anything to do with the MMCSS issues but at least the FLS plugin limit will be lifted, right?

https://www.musicradar.com/amp/news/new ... n-your-daw

Re: Cubase 10, Windows 10 and multi-core (14+ cores)

Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 7:08 pm
by aaandima
There are two different problems:

First:
FLS (Local Fiber Storage).
The next Windows Functional Upgrade will allow for about 4000 slots instead of a maximum of 128 slots.
Each plugin occupies at least one slot, but there are plugins that occupy more than four slots.

Second:
The problem of Windows 10 MMCSS (Multimedia Library).
The library has been moved from user mode to kernel mode as of Windows 10. This now limits the maximum number of virtual processors. The library is currently stable under Windows 10 Version 1809 only if the CPU has a maximum of about 14 logical processors or no more than 32 threads are occupied by MMCSS.

The second problem is not solved by the new and better FLS.
Although there should be a registration patch from Steinberg, but unfortunately the solution is only available on request and not publicly.

What Cubase 10 I do not know exactly, apparently, the program now ensures that a maximum of 32 threads are opened by MMCSS.
https://helpcenter.steinberg.de/hc/en-u ... CPU-setups
In my opinion, this is at the expense of performance. As long as Microsoft does not increase the maximum number of threads runs Cubase 10 with the handbrake on. (Is anyone of a different opinion?) That would mean that the performance of a 20-core CPU from Cubase when using the MMCSS only as a CPU running with 14 logical cores.

The registry patch might solve the problem, but apparently there are people who can not successfully apply the patch:

https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/win ... h=1&page=1

Re: Cubase 10, Windows 10 and multi-core (14+ cores)

Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:50 pm
by uarte
aaandima wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 7:08 pm
In my opinion, this is at the expense of performance. As long as Microsoft does not increase the maximum number of threads runs Cubase 10 with the handbrake on. (Is anyone of a different opinion?) That would mean that the performance of a 20-core CPU from Cubase when using the MMCSS only as a CPU running with 14 logical cores.

Thanks for your POV -- after more research, I agree, the MMCSS issue of Cubase on Win 10 does not appear as though it will be helped by the upcoming FLS improvements of Win 10, which will mainly just benefit plugin count. But I am curious if Steinberg thinks otherwise.

As for performance improvements with the new MMCSS approach with Cubase 10, in my experience there IS a performance improvement on a 10-core (20-thread) CPU with Cubase 10 over Cubase 9.5, but more importantly the dropout/engine behavior seems improved as well. Unless I missed a bunch of posts, it seems this thread has plenty of examples of people with improvements, so I think whatever Steinberg did with MMCSS management has helped more than hurt, although there are certainly people facing issues that need to be tracked down and solved. Overall, I think it's a step in the right direction, but I'm sure further improvements are needed.

My understanding is that the old registry tweaks, etc., are no longer needed... at least in my case they're not needed anymore, but perhaps Fabio can enlighten us on the latest info? He mentioned various switches to control spawning prefetch threads in different ways, etc... wondering if there has been any further intel on further improvements?

Re: Cubase 10, Windows 10 and multi-core (14+ cores)

Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 5:17 pm
by SymphonicSamples
Hello, I thought I'd add my recent experience with a new build. I went from a 6 core intel 64 gigs ram @ 4.5 Ghz setup to a TR 2950x 16 core 128 gig ram @ 4.0 Ghz. On a very demanding large project on the old PC with about 55 gigs of samples loaded the machine was pushed to its limits and would tip the average load meter in Cubase Pro 10 into the red a number of times where all cores/threads would be maxed out close to 100% Cpu load during playing back when viewed via the resource monitor in Windows. So I finished my new build and got it up and running and the same project was around 32 % Cpu load used in windows resource monitor but high in the average load meter in Cubase, but not tipping into the red indicator any more. It wasn't exactly what I'd hoped for but certainly better. So I then using the Amd Ryzen Master software disabled 4 cores for a test, intern going from 16 cores down to 12 and Cubase now sits around the half way point most of the playback time over about 10 minutes which certainly achieved far better performance in Cubase 10 and more so what I'd been hoping for when I upgraded. Granted I want to take advantage of the 16 cores and not 12 but for now it's positive results so I'm intending on doing a few more tests to try and park only 2 cores via the bios as Ryzen master needed it evenly distributed so 1 per die.
Cheers