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Steinberg - EUCON. Why are you ignoring Avid users?

Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 12:35 am
by Outsounder
Search for Eucon on the Steinberg forum and there are literally hundreds and hundreds of posts, replies and requests, I've copied this thread over from the C8 Forum from 2015.

Could someone from Steinberg comment on this issue please, posts from many avid users are being ignored and have been for some years. It's getting bl**dy ridiculous.


J-S-Q wrote: ↑10 Jul 2016 23:24
Svenne wrote:
"When will we see the mixer mirror/track visibility, promised by Guillermo"
Guillermo wrote:
"We have already implemented the "Mixer mirror" feature/option but cannot be delivered on the current EuCon(version 2) adapter. R"
"We are waiting for the delivery of the next EuCon(version 3) adapter. As soon as we support EuCon 3, this
functionality (mixer mirror/track visibility) will be available & usable"

Isn't it obvious that which tracks are shown, on the control surface, should mirror the visibility settings in the MixConsol? Why on, on earth, would anyone hide channels in the MixConsol and still have them clutter up the control surface.

If Nektar can get it right, with the Panorama, why can't Steinberg? It's such an easy fix!!
Yes,

"PLEASE can we have an update on this from Guillermo or somebody else at Steinberg? Seeing as we now have EuCon version 3 in place, is it now technically possible to implement this? Will it ever happen?"

Thanks.

Re: Steinberg - EUCON. Why are you ignoring Avid users?

Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 12:46 pm
by J-S-Q
Yes, Eucon is completely neglected by Steinberg. Very disappointing. The only change I can think of in the past few years is when a bug was introduced so you cannot mute VCA tracks from the controller. Still not fixed after two years.

That's it. No other development. We are going BACKWARDS!

I do find it quite annoying that they refuse to comment on the Track Visibility issue.

Re: Steinberg - EUCON. Why are you ignoring Avid users?

Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 7:39 pm
by Sonik
:(

Re: Steinberg - EUCON. Why are you ignoring Avid users?

Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 8:03 pm
by Funkybot
As an Artist Mix user, I'd like to +1 this as well.

Re: Steinberg - EUCON. Why are you ignoring Avid users?

Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 12:42 pm
by cubace
They totally ignore everything regarding hardware controllers at steinberg. I wonder if they have any in their product deign/decision team that have any background in music studio business. They do cool gui stuff and dreaming on working for a game company instead? There have been no progress what so ever in this area for 10 years now.

Re: Steinberg - EUCON. Why are you ignoring Avid users?

Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 12:58 pm
by ResonantMind
Just curious, does/would Avid support Steinberg controllers?

Re: Steinberg - EUCON. Why are you ignoring Avid users?

Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 1:02 pm
by Jari Junttila
ResonantMind wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 12:58 pm
Just curious, does/would Avid support Steinberg controllers?
Good point, that´s why we need Nuage lite controllers for cubendo

Re: Steinberg - EUCON. Why are you ignoring Avid users?

Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 2:29 pm
by noiseboyuk
Would be nice to get it fixed, for sure. I'm not really directly affected as I very rarely use the visibility agents, but perhaps a little bit of the reason for that is that I know it causes issues over EuCon.

Re: Steinberg - EUCON. Why are you ignoring Avid users?

Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 3:05 pm
by cubace
ResonantMind wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 12:58 pm
Just curious, does/would Avid support Steinberg controllers?
Controllers should be independent of daw, it should be based on standards. Yamaha has a great resposibility since they are part of the standards specification on midi. But dont drive the market, they prefer to be on the proprietary corner with Nuage. Avid or I should say Euphonix before they ware bought by avid had some speaks on AES with that as a topic. A AES standard would be great!

Re: Steinberg - EUCON. Why are you ignoring Avid users?

Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 3:16 pm
by ResonantMind
cubace wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 3:05 pm
ResonantMind wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 12:58 pm
Just curious, does/would Avid support Steinberg controllers?
Controllers should be independent of daw, it should be based on standards. Yamaha has a great resposibility since they are part of the standards specification on midi. But dont drive the market, they prefer to be on the proprietary corner with Nuage. Avid or I should say Euphonix before they ware bought by avid had some speaks on AES with that as a topic. A AES standard would be great!
Well the irony there is that Euphonix was talking about this and then sold themselves to Avid....

Eitherway, I'm not entirely sure all controller should be independent of DAW. that needs to be left up to the company. Some controllers should be specifically designed for specific DAW for utmost stability, and it also protects the company from their controller being trashed because it doesn't work with so and so program by so and so company that they have no control over. And then it becomes a thing of who is responsible to fix. Does the other software company writ their software to always work with that controller, or does the controller company always have to update their hardware firmware every time software is upgraded by their competitor? And some of these companies might intentionally sabotage compatibility.

So it's hard to get companies to agree to standards. MIDI is a rare existence in that context, problem is, it has never been upgraded because it is such a standard.

Re: Steinberg - EUCON. Why are you ignoring Avid users?

Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 3:22 pm
by cubace
ResonantMind wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 3:16 pm
cubace wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 3:05 pm
ResonantMind wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 12:58 pm
Just curious, does/would Avid support Steinberg controllers?
Controllers should be independent of daw, it should be based on standards. Yamaha has a great resposibility since they are part of the standards specification on midi. But dont drive the market, they prefer to be on the proprietary corner with Nuage. Avid or I should say Euphonix before they ware bought by avid had some speaks on AES with that as a topic. A AES standard would be great!
Well the irony there is that Euphonix was talking about this and then sold themselves to Avid....

Eitherway, I'm not entirely sure all controller should be independent of DAW. that needs to be left up to the company. Some controllers should be specifically designed for specific DAW for utmost stability, and it also protects the company from their controller being trashed because it doesn't work with so and so program by so and so company that they have no control over. And then it becomes a thing of who is responsible to fix. Does the other software company writ their software to always work with that controller, or does the controller company always have to update their hardware firmware every time software is upgraded by their competitor? And some of these companies might intentionally sabotage compatibility.

So it's hard to get companies to agree to standards. MIDI is a rare existence in that context, problem is, it has never been upgraded because it is such a standard.
Have you not heard about the new thing? It's called internet, it is purely based on open standards. It might be something, check it out!

Re: Steinberg - EUCON. Why are you ignoring Avid users?

Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 3:25 pm
by ResonantMind
cubace wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 3:22 pm
ResonantMind wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 3:16 pm
cubace wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 3:05 pm

Controllers should be independent of daw, it should be based on standards. Yamaha has a great resposibility since they are part of the standards specification on midi. But dont drive the market, they prefer to be on the proprietary corner with Nuage. Avid or I should say Euphonix before they ware bought by avid had some speaks on AES with that as a topic. A AES standard would be great!
Well the irony there is that Euphonix was talking about this and then sold themselves to Avid....

Eitherway, I'm not entirely sure all controller should be independent of DAW. that needs to be left up to the company. Some controllers should be specifically designed for specific DAW for utmost stability, and it also protects the company from their controller being trashed because it doesn't work with so and so program by so and so company that they have no control over. And then it becomes a thing of who is responsible to fix. Does the other software company writ their software to always work with that controller, or does the controller company always have to update their hardware firmware every time software is upgraded by their competitor? And some of these companies might intentionally sabotage compatibility.

So it's hard to get companies to agree to standards. MIDI is a rare existence in that context, problem is, it has never been upgraded because it is such a standard.
Have you not heard about the new thing? It's called internet, it is purely based on open standards. It might be something, check it out!
I'm confused, are you comparing the internet to DAW Controllers?

Re: Steinberg - EUCON. Why are you ignoring Avid users?

Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 4:46 pm
by cubace
ResonantMind wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 3:25 pm
cubace wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 3:22 pm
ResonantMind wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 3:16 pm


Well the irony there is that Euphonix was talking about this and then sold themselves to Avid....

Eitherway, I'm not entirely sure all controller should be independent of DAW. that needs to be left up to the company. Some controllers should be specifically designed for specific DAW for utmost stability, and it also protects the company from their controller being trashed because it doesn't work with so and so program by so and so company that they have no control over. And then it becomes a thing of who is responsible to fix. Does the other software company writ their software to always work with that controller, or does the controller company always have to update their hardware firmware every time software is upgraded by their competitor? And some of these companies might intentionally sabotage compatibility.

So it's hard to get companies to agree to standards. MIDI is a rare existence in that context, problem is, it has never been upgraded because it is such a standard.
Have you not heard about the new thing? It's called internet, it is purely based on open standards. It might be something, check it out!
I'm confused, are you comparing the internet to DAW Controllers?
Yes. Very much. Same problem, same solution. It's two computers that needs to understand each other.

Re: Steinberg - EUCON. Why are you ignoring Avid users?

Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 4:52 pm
by ResonantMind
I'm failing to see the similarity. One is a controller used by one or few people to perform specific tasks... the other is an open source continuously developing protocol that actually really is not a standard, there are some anchor points... but it's pretty open ended and no one actually knows the extent of the internet yet, it developed quicker than we can assess it.

VST is a standard, AVID does not support it.

Re: Steinberg - EUCON. Why are you ignoring Avid users?

Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 5:23 pm
by alexdetig
Really?
Bildschirmfoto 2018-11-18 um 17.22.12.png
(246.77 KiB) Not downloaded yet

Re: Steinberg - EUCON. Why are you ignoring Avid users?

Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 6:04 pm
by Funkybot
EUCON can be implemented in any DAW at no cost, which is why Cubase implemented it. It's a feature of Cubase and part of the reason I bought a Cubase license in the first place. It would behoove Steinberg to completely ignore improving their implementation since this helps sell Cubase licenses.

The only difference between EUCON and Mackie/HUI is that anyone can make a Mackie/HUI controller, but only Avid can make EUCON controllers. Any DAW is free to implement EUCON as a protocol. Seems fair. EUCON support can be a mutually beneficial relationship: helps Avid sell hardware, and helps DAWs sell licenses to people who want to use said hardware.

Re: Steinberg - EUCON. Why are you ignoring Avid users?

Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:07 pm
by cubace
ResonantMind wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 4:52 pm
I'm failing to see the similarity. One is a controller used by one or few people to perform specific tasks... the other is an open source continuously developing protocol that actually really is not a standard, there are some anchor points... but it's pretty open ended and no one actually knows the extent of the internet yet, it developed quicker than we can assess it.

VST is a standard, AVID does not support it.
The internet is the protocols defined by IETF. All the work is done in the public. No one can make a standard themselves, it need at least two independent implementations before it can be reviewed to make it a standard, and the standard can be changed. So, what standard organisation stands behind VST? I think Steinbergs claims to own it.

Re: Steinberg - EUCON. Why are you ignoring Avid users?

Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 11:45 pm
by Outsounder
Seems to me that Mackie/Hui and Euphonix, (now Eucon and owned by Avid) were all quite happily cooperating with most DAW software houses until Yamaha launched Nuage in direct competition to Avid upmarket controllers. Up until that point Eucon was leading the race for Nuendo control and was introduced into the Cubase installation routine rather than needing a separate download USB dongle licence.

Steinberg use the SDK protocol as their proprietary bridge between DAW and controller. Avid support claim in their forums that the required SDK for the latest releases of Eucon have been exchanged with Steinberg and I don't disbelieve them.

Avid also declare in their lates PR releases for Eucon 2018.3.x that Nuendo and Cubase are recognised as authorised, supported Eucon compatible workstations. So, why have Steinberg failed to incorporate the SDK (which they own and devolved along with VST technology) and latest Eucon updates into subsequent Nuendo/Cubase updates and releases?

They have stated in these forums a few years ago that they have indeed recieved then Eucon updated SDK and have the hide channels feature and other fixes reflecting onto Avid controllers working, to be included in the next update.

Three years later, we now have Cubase 10 and the reps and moderators repeatedly and ignorantly I must say, ignore posts and requests for information on anything to do with Eucon.

It seems they may have been instructed by Yamaha not to enter into any discussion on the subject which just casts a disquieting cold grey cloud of mistrust over people who have made substantial investments on Avid controllers.

The latest release of Cubase 10 claims a lot, though, a quick look through these forums clearly shows, and even by Steinbergs own statements doesn't work properly and will be fixed in a forthcoming upgrade! Really...?

Steinberg have repeatedly shown that a new release can easily be used to brush outstanding bugs and broken features under the GUI carpet and people have become quite aware of that tactic.

Luckily, in this day and age, most people own and multiple DAW's so purchasing the next all singing release is an option, not a nessecity for a lot of people. Its something that Yamaha/Steinberg seem oblivious to as they race on headlong to make thier flagship products look just like Studio One whilst destroying their own iconic visual branding.

The thing is, Studio One has its own dedicated controller, Cubase doesn't so people invest in Avid controllers and expect them to work as claimed, they should get on it and do it.

Re: Steinberg - EUCON. Why are you ignoring Avid users?

Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:57 pm
by OxygenBeats
wtf is a eucon lol

Re: Steinberg - EUCON. Why are you ignoring Avid users?

Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 7:45 pm
by J-S-Q
OxygenBeats wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:57 pm
wtf is a eucon lol
It is a (very good) software protocol that enables DAW's to be used with Avid control surfaces. e.g. Avid S3, Avid Artist Series etc. Way better than Mackie MCU I would argue.

Ok, it is somewhat of a niche area, probably hence why it is being neglected by Steinberg but come one.... us Eucon users still deserve a bit of love after years being left out in the cold.

Re: Steinberg - EUCON. Why are you ignoring Avid users?

Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 7:51 pm
by OxygenBeats
J-S-Q wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 7:45 pm
It is a (very good) software protocol that enables DAW's to be used with Avid control surfaces. e.g. Avid S3, Avid Artist Series etc. Way better than Mackie MCU I would argue.

Ok, it is somewhat of a niche area, probably hence why it is being neglected by Steinberg but come one.... us Eucon users still deserve a bit of love after years being left out in the cold.
Okay thanks for the explanation. I looked it up in google and the first thing that pops up is a convention in Eugene. I mean, I looked it up more and found what it was, but I'd rather have someone explain it in their own words so thanks.

For me, I don't even really use any such controllers anymore. I generally find it's just easier for me to tweak tracks inside the actual software. But I'm really good with my mouse and keyboard. I've got a ton of custom key commands and I've laid them out in such a way that is far better and more efficient than any external hardware. And for dragging stuff, I just practice at getting good with the mouse.

Sometimes I use Aimbooster.com to make my mouse ability so good that it becomes seamless to drag stuff around digitally.

Re: Steinberg - EUCON. Why are you ignoring Avid users?

Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 7:58 pm
by J-S-Q
OxygenBeats wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 7:51 pm
J-S-Q wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 7:45 pm
It is a (very good) software protocol that enables DAW's to be used with Avid control surfaces. e.g. Avid S3, Avid Artist Series etc. Way better than Mackie MCU I would argue.

Ok, it is somewhat of a niche area, probably hence why it is being neglected by Steinberg but come one.... us Eucon users still deserve a bit of love after years being left out in the cold.
Okay thanks for the explanation. I looked it up in google and the first thing that pops up is a convention in Eugene. I mean, I looked it up more and found what it was, but I'd rather have someone explain it in their own words so thanks.

For me, I don't even really use any such controllers anymore. I generally find it's just easier for me to tweak tracks inside the actual software. But I'm really good with my mouse and keyboard. I've got a ton of custom key commands and I've laid them out in such a way that is far better and more efficient than any external hardware. And for dragging stuff, I just practice at getting good with the mouse.

Sometimes I use Aimbooster.com to make my mouse ability so good that it becomes seamless to drag stuff around digitally.
Yep, I'm very good with a mouse too and also have a zillion custom key commands/macros etc. but for some things, I find a controller very useful. And I presume you haven't used a Eucon controller. Definitely better than anything else out there for Cubase other than spending £20-30k on a Nuage, in my opinion.

Re: Steinberg - EUCON. Why are you ignoring Avid users?

Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:09 pm
by OxygenBeats
J-S-Q wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 7:58 pm
Yep, I'm very good with a mouse too and also have a zillion custom key commands/macros etc. but for some things, I find a controller very useful. And I presume you haven't used a Eucon controller. Definitely better than anything else out there for Cubase other than spending £20-30k on a Nuage, in my opinion.
What things are that specifically? Are you just referring to moving faders up and down? Or is there more to it that you like?

Re: Steinberg - EUCON. Why are you ignoring Avid users?

Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:48 pm
by J-S-Q
OxygenBeats wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:09 pm
J-S-Q wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 7:58 pm
Yep, I'm very good with a mouse too and also have a zillion custom key commands/macros etc. but for some things, I find a controller very useful. And I presume you haven't used a Eucon controller. Definitely better than anything else out there for Cubase other than spending £20-30k on a Nuage, in my opinion.
What things are that specifically? Are you just referring to moving faders up and down? Or is there more to it that you like?
Editing plugin parameters is the biggest thing but of course moving faders, instantiating plugins, routing, muting, solos etc etc. Mixing basically. :) I never use it for audio editing.
Excellent for monitor control in Cubase Control room as well.

Re: Steinberg - EUCON. Why are you ignoring Avid users?

Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:35 pm
by OxygenBeats
J-S-Q wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:48 pm
Editing plugin parameters is the biggest thing but of course moving faders, instantiating plugins, routing, muting, solos etc etc. Mixing basically. :) I never use it for audio editing.
Excellent for monitor control in Cubase Control room as well.
A lot of those things I already have routed to my keyboard, so I'm not going to get any faster than a button that's already where my fingers are.

For moving faders and plugin parameters, I just find that the level of complexity is just too high to justify putting it in a hardware control. Because often I find that I'm using 100-200 tracks in a project, and many of those tracks have several automation lanes active. It's just easier to look at the automation as I change it and most of the time I draw in the automation. And for plug in parameters, there's just so many parameters that it would be really confusing to map them all onto a hardware controller, unless the hardware controller was like a perfect replication of the software but just in hardware form (which it's not).

I feel like perhaps it would be more useful with holder and more simplified synths and plugins; but today's vsti's have so many variables (of which I use nearly all of them often) that it just wouldn't make sense. It's easier to edit in the actual software, plus I save on money and set up space which also means my workflow is less dependent and I'm able to easily travel and produce without any set backs.

Just my opinion though. To each their own.