Brauerizing In Cubase

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Nytshade
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Brauerizing In Cubase

Post by Nytshade » Tue Jul 30, 2019 3:18 pm

Hi ladies (if there are any :D ) and gents.

I would love to use the Brauer multi buss technique on Cubase Pro 10.0.30. Does anyone here use this technique, know or have an idea about how this can be implemented on Cubase? Maybe a Template?

Everyone who explains this routing technique uses Pro Tools and I've been using Cubase since SX and have never tried other DAWs so I find Pro Tools routing tutorials confusing.

Can anyone please give me a layout of how I can Brauerize in Cubase? Also let me know how to do dual or multimono compression, if not it's OK since I've found a couple of plugins that have dual mono compression like the the dbx 160 and Fairchild emulations.

And, do I have to uses buses or groups, or it doesn't matter?

Please help, my mixing is starting to get stagnant and I would like to try new things.

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Re: Brauerizing In Cubase

Post by Dirx » Tue Jul 30, 2019 6:15 pm

Hi,

I have set up a template that is very close to his descriptions in terms of routing, but with different Plugins (all Waves).

In general you would need:
4 Stereo Busses (A-D, different Compression, EQ and widening, route the output of channels to them, also might use the sends, as Brauer tends to send Sources to multiple Busses sometimes)
1 Stereo Bus (Glue) with mono 1176 and Insert routing set to left for one instance, and right for the other (Cubase Pro feature only, but if you have a template made with Pro, it will still work in Elements) Or you might use Dual mono Compressor, very easy with nearly any Plugin in PT, not so in Cubase.
Send sources with additional Aux send to it, to glue together.
5 Busses (stereo in my case, might be mono in his original Setup) with different type of compression, route the Main Vocals via 5 Aux sends to these Busses, and create part of the "sound" with different leves to the different busses. Route the output of the Main Vocals to "nowhere", just the sends to the 5 Busses.

I could send you my template, but without the waves-plugins it might be useless for you?
(SSL-Bundle, Silver-Bundle,NLS, CLA-1176)

Hope it helps..Cheers,
Dirx
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Re: Brauerizing In Cubase

Post by toader » Tue Jul 30, 2019 6:22 pm

I've debated this, but hardware delay compensation would be CRITICAL for this kind of funtionality if ever using external hardware compressors (I do). Hardware delay compensation currently does not work for me, so I guess I can't do this using Cubase (at least if I still want to use my hardware compressors).
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Re: Brauerizing In Cubase

Post by GiovanniB » Tue Jul 30, 2019 6:25 pm

Hi Dirx,
I would love to see that template. I have some of the plugins you mention, but I just want to understand the routing.

Thank you.

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Re: Brauerizing In Cubase

Post by Dirx » Tue Jul 30, 2019 7:04 pm

Hi GiovanniB,

I send you a PM, but as this is the first time I did this there is he chance that I did it wrong..
If it didn't work, tell me here, and I'll try again.

If you have questions, tell me.
In my template Bus "A" is for Drums and Bass, and "C" for Stereo widening, If I recall it right Michael uses other Busses for the same thing.
I have set my thresholds and levels so, that I aim to the Katz -12 skale.

Cheers,
Dirx
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Re: Brauerizing In Cubase

Post by Nytshade » Tue Jul 30, 2019 8:40 pm

Dirx wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 6:15 pm
Hi,

I have set up a template that is very close to his descriptions in terms of routing, but with different Plugins (all Waves).

In general you would need:
4 Stereo Busses (A-D, different Compression, EQ and widening, route the output of channels to them, also might use the sends, as Brauer tends to send Sources to multiple Busses sometimes)
1 Stereo Bus (Glue) with mono 1176 and Insert routing set to left for one instance, and right for the other (Cubase Pro feature only, but if you have a template made with Pro, it will still work in Elements) Or you might use Dual mono Compressor, very easy with nearly any Plugin in PT, not so in Cubase.
Send sources with additional Aux send to it, to glue together.
5 Busses (stereo in my case, might be mono in his original Setup) with different type of compression, route the Main Vocals via 5 Aux sends to these Busses, and create part of the "sound" with different leves to the different busses. Route the output of the Main Vocals to "nowhere", just the sends to the 5 Busses.

I could send you my template, but without the waves-plugins it might be useless for you?
(SSL-Bundle, Silver-Bundle,NLS, CLA-1176)

Hope it helps..Cheers,
Dirx
Thanks Dirx, please send me the template. Just like GiovanniB said, I also want to understand the routing.

If there are any issues with your template we can all discuss it here till we get it to work perfectly. This is really awesome Dirx, now I'm really excited please PM the template :)

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Re: Brauerizing In Cubase

Post by Dirx » Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:32 pm

Links are sent,

I was too stupid GiovanniB... should work now...
Cheers,
Dirx
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Re: Brauerizing In Cubase

Post by mr.roos » Tue Jul 30, 2019 10:28 pm

This is an interesting post. I would like that template as well if you don't mind, Dirx?

Another thing, as far as I know, the Group channel and Efx channel are pretty much the same thing in Cubase, so when you say 'aux' channel are you meaning a group channel or an efx channel? Do you have a preference? Also, you have me wondering? When you say route the track to a 1176 via the left output, and then another 1176 via the right output, are you duplicating the original track(s) to do this, or is there a way to route left and right to duplicate 1176 efx channels from the single source track? This would be sweet actually, but I can't do this. Am I missing something?

Also, when you are creating 5 Stereo (or mono) buses, are these Group channels as well?

Sorry if I'm confusing things here but I need to try some different mixing options and what you're talking about looks like a great set up.

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

OK, messing around with things a bit, I see I can route the single original track to No Bus and then create two sends, and after creating two Group channels, send the track to Group 1 and to Group 2 and then within the sends of this original track I can also adjust the pan such that Group 1 is panned hard Left and Group is panned hard Right, and then add two versions of Waves 1176 to either channel. I didn't know I could do this... slow on the uptake. (Also note, when doing this to a Stereo track it seems you have to use a stereo version of the Waves plugin because of the way the plugin is built, the mono version doesn't sense the right side of the stereo track.)

But does this get me into your idea of routing the track via the Left and Right output? I don't think so, but how are you able to make use of the Left and Right output routing and without duplicating the original track?
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Re: Brauerizing In Cubase

Post by GiovanniB » Tue Jul 30, 2019 11:25 pm

Thank you Dirx. It looks interesting.

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Re: Brauerizing In Cubase

Post by Dirx » Wed Jul 31, 2019 1:44 am

Mr.roos,

link is sent.

I am using Group Channels as Busses, and was naming the "sends" from the source channel "aux send". I confuse naming sometimes, in PT these Busses are named Aux-Channels.

The 1176 Group Channel has Two mono 1176, and in the insert routing of this Group Channel, you set the first to be inserted Left, an the second to be inserted right, as this was the only way I could think of to make the 1176 on the stereo Group "Dual-mono", as this is "Important"-(in the Brauerize world...I mean...don't take anything of my Template to be "The real and only way...")
So the goal is not to be able to send L and R to different Groups, but to have L and R independently processed.

The 5 Busses for the Main Vox are groups as well.

Cheers,
Dirx
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Re: Brauerizing In Cubase

Post by Nytshade » Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:56 am

Dirx, that is really amazing.

Now I know how to do dual compression in Cubase because of you and I finally understand the routing.

Here are a few things that need to be tweaked based on all the the tutorials I've seen:

- All the buss compressors (ABCD) need to be dual mono.
- Buss compressors need to be calibrated to -1dB of gain reduction using a tone generator (calibrated at -18, on cubase the default is -12 so you have to change it to -18) and a VU Meter.
- The Pultec also needs to be calibrated using the tone generator. I see that you tried to replicate that with the Cubase EQ but the Pultec has a different curve it's not just an ordinary shelf like the one on Cubase.
- For the vocal chain, Brauer mixes the verse different from the chorus. So VX01 and VX02 from your template is for the Verse, VX03, VX04 and VX05 are for the chorus.

I have to mention that there are no strict rules do whatever makes sense to you and as long as it sounds good then go for it.

I also have a question. Why did you pan the vocal comps to the right?

This template gave me a great starting point, I've just made a few tweaks to it and now I'm finally happy with it. Thank you very much Dirx for this. I really can't Thank you enough. Many, Many, Many Thanks.

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Re: Brauerizing In Cubase

Post by Dirx » Wed Jul 31, 2019 9:58 am

Hi Nytshade,

damned about the Pultec thing, it is a while since I used the Template, and I knew I wanted to replace every EQ in ABCD with Pultec/SSL ones...
In fact in my Mind I already did...getting old..
I was shure, the ABCD Compressor where normal stereo in his setup, but (I am getting old...) maybe you're right...
The nice thing about setting VocalChain with the sends is, that you can duplicate the Vocal Channel, or create as many as you like, and use the send levels individual also for the sound , so if it fits to the singer "Joe" maybe VX01 and VX05 only, and if it sounds good 1,3, 4, and 5 with different levels for the Chorus, this was how I understood.
If you just play with the sends, and not with the Levels of the 5 Vocal Busses, you could use any combination for different parts inside the song, this is how I took it. (will re-read the Interview)
You also are right about the levels he mentions, but as I am complete in the digital domain, I aimed to the Katz -12 skale, this is how my Chains were set up (roughly), I found it difficult to translate into analogue world he is in. ( different converters, headroom, 0dBFS might be up to +22dBu analogue).

I just opened the Template, but here everything is centered/alternating L-R, there must have gone something wrong with the Vocal Comps. Do you mean the Pan at the Channel output of VX01 to VX05?


Intersesting to see others are also into "Brauerizing" in these Days (getting old...), glad you could tweak to your needs!

Cheers,
Dirx
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Re: Brauerizing In Cubase

Post by mr.roos » Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:43 pm

Thanks for the file, Dirx, much appreciated! A bit overwhelming but all good, thank you.

Also Dirx and Nytshade, where are these tutorials you are reading? Also Nytshade, would you mind messaging me your revamped template setup? This is a new thing for me and wouldn't mind seeing how your take on the same setup if you don't mind? Thanks.
Cubase 10 Pro from SX3, WaveLab Pro 9.5, iC Pro remote app, Win10 64-bit (1903 update installed - latest OS build always), Intel i7 8700 Coffee Lake 6-Core 3.2GHz, 32G DDR4 3200, Gigabyte Z390 Designare MB, Radeon RX570 Graphics card, Mackie 1640i (FireWire via TI chipset PCI-E card), M-Audio Keystation 61es controller via an M-Audio Midi-Sport 1X1.

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Re: Brauerizing In Cubase

Post by Nytshade » Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:19 pm

Hi Dirx, if you say you're not sure about why the vocal compressors are panned right then it's OK because it means it was a mistake. I just thought there was a reason behind it so I've put them in the center.

It's really interesting indeed to see that there are others who're also into Brauerizing. Thanks again for all the effort.

mr.roos, I've just sent you the revamped template. I've also calibrated the buss compressors using a tone generator and a VU meter.

Here are the tutorials:

This is Michael Brauer's website where he explains the routing: https://www.mbrauer.com/q-a

Some good Youtube Videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0akUKhkok0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghnvit-kUOo

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Re: Brauerizing In Cubase

Post by mr.roos » Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:58 pm

Whoa, thanks Nytshade, for your template and your references to Brauer. Also I see you are PT, just like Dirx? The Spanner plugin I don't have is my point. It looks like a great plugin, too, but I'm pretty nuts and bolts here, not mixing in 5.1, just stereo so I'm just eliminating that plugin. Should I put an iZotope imager plugin there instead?

I will have to spend some time with all of this (a lot) - and - I do appreciate both your's and Dirx's help here! This is a lot to digest, actually. At this point I have run a mono sax track through the vocal chain and then bypassed everything via the channel bus and listened to the two results. It's pretty remarkable, the improvement. Wow! Frankly, I think it's awesome to see Cubase (and my PC) survive the routing...haha, my old Win7 might not have been able to do this. Thanks again for the post, Nytshade!
Cubase 10 Pro from SX3, WaveLab Pro 9.5, iC Pro remote app, Win10 64-bit (1903 update installed - latest OS build always), Intel i7 8700 Coffee Lake 6-Core 3.2GHz, 32G DDR4 3200, Gigabyte Z390 Designare MB, Radeon RX570 Graphics card, Mackie 1640i (FireWire via TI chipset PCI-E card), M-Audio Keystation 61es controller via an M-Audio Midi-Sport 1X1.

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Re: Brauerizing In Cubase

Post by Dirx » Wed Jul 31, 2019 9:27 pm

Here is also a link to someone who explains it quite good, plus there are good diagrams for the routing.

https://brauerizing.wordpress.com/2014/ ... -to-guide/
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Re: Brauerizing In Cubase

Post by Joe90 » Wed Jul 31, 2019 10:11 pm

Just FYI... There was a thread on gearslutz about Brauerizing ITB, and Micheal Brauer actually chimed in - he said he's tried extensively to recreate his setup ITB and he could not get it sounding right, something to do with phase issues on the groups/busses, even when all plugins and the path are properly latency compensated, there is apparently a 'cloudiness' that does not occur via his standard hardware method.
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Re: Brauerizing In Cubase

Post by mr.roos » Wed Jul 31, 2019 10:53 pm

Thanks for this Dirx.

Joe90, was he using PT? I wonder if another DAW OS can route with less 'cloudiness'? Too, he might have ears of Gold, but I think a few hit records have been mixed ITB, even if mastered using partial or all external analog gear. Too, routing through analog hardware using this rather complex Brauer method can't be without some type of 'cloudiness'?

Well, food for thought, Joe90, thanks.
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Re: Brauerizing In Cubase

Post by Nytshade » Thu Aug 01, 2019 6:43 am

mr.roos wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:58 pm
Whoa, thanks Nytshade, for your template and your references to Brauer. Also I see you are PT, just like Dirx? The Spanner plugin I don't have is my point. It looks like a great plugin, too, but I'm pretty nuts and bolts here, not mixing in 5.1, just stereo so I'm just eliminating that plugin. Should I put an iZotope imager plugin there instead?

I will have to spend some time with all of this (a lot) - and - I do appreciate both your's and Dirx's help here! This is a lot to digest, actually. At this point I have run a mono sax track through the vocal chain and then bypassed everything via the channel bus and listened to the two results. It's pretty remarkable, the improvement. Wow! Frankly, I think it's awesome to see Cubase (and my PC) survive the routing...haha, my old Win7 might not have been able to do this. Thanks again for the post, Nytshade!
Hey mr.roos, you're very welcome and feel free change the plugins and give this routing a twist to fit your workflow if you have to.
Dirx wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 9:27 pm
Here is also a link to someone who explains it quite good, plus there are good diagrams for the routing.

https://brauerizing.wordpress.com/2014/ ... -to-guide/
Nice one Dirx, I'll definitely check that one out as well.
Joe90 wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 10:11 pm
Just FYI... There was a thread on gearslutz about Brauerizing ITB, and Micheal Brauer actually chimed in - he said he's tried extensively to recreate his setup ITB and he could not get it sounding right, something to do with phase issues on the groups/busses, even when all plugins and the path are properly latency compensated, there is apparently a 'cloudiness' that does not occur via his standard hardware method.
Joe90 that was true at some point but on the Q&A page that I posted above he added some changes and he said:
Edit: It works now! All of the routing and sends & returns can be done without issue. Although I don't mix In-The-Box, I have an ITB template that mimics my main Hybrid setup, and I take this template with me when I am away from my studio.
He made this edit not so long ago and that's what made me interested to find out how to Brauerize with Cubase and I think he uses Nuendo for his routing technique when he's not in his studio.

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Re: Brauerizing In Cubase

Post by Tony H » Tue Aug 06, 2019 3:00 pm

hI !
I ALSO WOULD LOVE TO SEE THE TEMPLATE IF YOU CAN PM ME WITH A LINK WOULD BE SO COOL
I HAVE SOMETHING SIMILAR I AM WORKING ON BUT NOT YET FINISHED .
I WANT TO USE THAT BRAUER METHOD AS WELL AS (OOOOPS CAPS LOCK SORRY )
My "All busses " like ..all vox ,alld drums ,all music and so on so as i have a choice and can make the decision as i go .
however this makes my busses and group outs massive even before i have a single track loaded into the template
So to counteract this i will use mixer two as the braurer setup whith all the multi comps and outs and mixer one just for my st out , mixbus out and all groups .
i also am looking into a separate bank of VCA fader groups so i can turd down all the drums and or all other tracks as needed.
i currently utilise this whith a master vca wich is linked as a master to all other vca faders in the project .. works soooooo gooooood .but ... the extra real estate is mind blowing... so mixer three i think .
cheers guys
T
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Re: Brauerizing In Cubase

Post by Psytrance » Tue Aug 06, 2019 3:30 pm

@Dirx
I am also interested to look at your template since i also trying this mixing method :-). Could you pleeeeease PM me?

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Re: Brauerizing In Cubase

Post by Dirx » Tue Aug 06, 2019 6:47 pm

@Tony H,
@Psytrance,
links are sent, I changed the ABCD-Compressors to dual-mono (Nytshade was complete right about it...) and replaced the Cubase EQ with Puigtech(not finished tweaking yet).
If you want to be closer to the "real Idea"(no rules though), it seems that Nytshades Template is closer to the real thing now.

Cheers,
Dirx
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Re: Brauerizing In Cubase

Post by Tony H » Thu Aug 08, 2019 6:52 pm

UPDATE .:
I love this …
holy crap what a difference I downloaded a song from Cambridge mixing site and brauerised it hihi
here are my first impressions thus far !
set up took me ages but that is due to this being new for me and way different from my normal workflow .
and also I had an age before my gainstaging was ready again because its a new method
I am amazed how freekin loud things got seriously loud I had to take more breaks than other times but hey its a rock song …
loved those free floating 1176s they are cool to have set up to do what one whishes .
the sound overall is overawing and awesome I will try three or four other mixes with differen Genre and then see where I am and how long I need to setup etc .
overall happy happy happy (so far ).
oh and this set and forget on the busses is so cool .. I don't even look at them until I hear something that is adverse,,,
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Re: Brauerizing In Cubase

Post by kokot » Thu Aug 29, 2019 1:54 pm

@Nytshade
@Dirx

Could you please send me your templates as well?
I would like to try it out, please.

Thanks

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Re: Brauerizing In Cubase

Post by Dirx » Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:51 pm

It's on the way.
Cheers,
Dirx
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