Cubase/Dorico Integration?

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TheMaestro
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Re: Cubase/Dorico Integration?

Post by TheMaestro »

Hi Thurisaz

Thanks for your post.

You can not request that the Score Editor to resemble another software.
They are simply designed differently, each with their strengths and weak points

Overture is a great DAW-like notation software, nicely designed and easy to use with lots of well-thought-out settings.
Sorry but the same applies to Cubase Score Editor.

Thurisaz wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 2:12 am
1. Completely New Design of the Score Editor + tons of improvements
New design? not really necessary, the design of the Score Editor is OK and consistent with the rest of Cubase. But why not?

Tons of improvements?
Totally agree. Tons, Always...

Thurisaz wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 2:12 am
2. Completely New Expression Maps - exactly as they work in Overture 5.5.
The Expressions in Overture is very well designed, excellent, I agree.
The Expression Maps in Cubase is also extremely powerful, though it hasn't been improved since its integration.
But Ironically, I cannot use expressions in Overture, because for example, I need to send mutiple Controllers for each expression, and that is not possible. In Cubase you can set output mapping without limitations. So you see, conversely, Overture is unfortunately "useless" for me, due to this particular case.

Thurisaz wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 2:12 am
3. A New Conception about the Instrument/MIDI tracks is needed
Sorry I don't understand what you describe so I won't comment.



Don Williams has been doing a great job for years, I completely agree (I even used his Encore before Score Editor). As to whether Michael Michaelis would have something to learn from him, I don't know, as he too has been doing a great job for over 25 years on the Score Editor.
For the rest, I woudldn't want to be rapped on the knuckles by -steve- for hijacking more this thread which is about Dorico integration into Cubase and I will reply to your other thread about the Score Editor more specifically. ;)
My apologies to the OP but it's impossible to talk about Dorico/Cubase integration without talking about the currenlty integrated scoring feature in Cubase.
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Re: Cubase/Dorico Integration?

Post by -steve- »

TheMaestro, You are plainly incorrigible. Report to Mother Superior at the end of the school day. :P
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Re: Cubase/Dorico Integration?

Post by TheMaestro »

:cry: ... :lol:
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Re: Cubase/Dorico Integration?

Post by guymichelmore »

I tried using score editor this morning. I have a big trailer track that needs cleaning up and the orchetsration sorting out but the score editor looks like a Jackson Pollock. Dp and Logic are much better.

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Re: Cubase/Dorico Integration?

Post by mart »

Score editor is functional but the point of Dorico integration would be to speed the process of moving midi over to dorico for marking up. At present yo need to carefully quantise all midi very correctly, export it, go to your score score DAW (Dorico, Sibelius). Import it... then realise there are problems caused by some badly quantised midi.
Having Dorico integration would mean the use could see how the midi was being interpretted by Dorico and clean it right there in Cubase and go back and forth between midi editor and integrated Dorico editor to see that notation is translating smoothly.

Other ideas / enhancements:
Dynamics: Most orchestral libraries have a MIDI controller assigned to dynamics. Why not have Dorico pick up on those controllers and write in dynamic marking based on certain controller values.
Articulations: There may be a way to indicate to the score articulation changes based on expression map and write that into the score automatically.
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Re: Cubase/Dorico Integration?

Post by Thurisaz »

As I mentioned in my comment above, the Score Editor must be redesigned (probably they could just integrate Dorico's - Write Mode).

The integration must be ARA-like based.
1. If one enters/records notes, articulations, dynamics, tempo, time signature, key signature in Dorico they must instantly appear in
Cubase / Nuendo and vice versa.
2. If one does any changes while only one of the both apps is started, there should be a Sync option to synchronize/update the project
when both are active.

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Re: Cubase/Dorico Integration?

Post by -steve- »

Don't get your hopes up. There are many reasons, technical and other, that render the statement, "probably they could just integrate Dorico's - Write Mode" false.
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Re: Cubase/Dorico Integration?

Post by singervienna »

I totally second all of the said things.
At least a direct import/export feature that maybe allows a little more to be taken over than music xml, the Dorico fonts etc. would be great IMO.
Although Score Editor in Cubase is underrated (a little more tutorial videos on the Steinberg channel might help) a "real" integration/interaction with Dorico would be very cool! Especially when you have mixed Audio/Midi Projects where you maybe had the midi parts laid out already but want to notate the audios then.
Or any transcription job really would profit greatly from being able to jump/navigate from a cubase playback (being able to use the CC121 e.g.) and having the same position in Dorico. (Maybe this can be done in with Rewire - I haven't tested this out because I'm quite new to Dorico, but this would be one thing that I'd love, if it was possible.
Also beging able to use the cc121 with Dorico for transport/jogging and basic mixing would be great...

cheers,
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Re: Cubase/Dorico Integration?

Post by mducharme »

I have actually seriously used the Cubase score editor a few times for a few pieces, and it was all right, but was not super happy with the result and how much work it was to produce that result.

What I really want to be able to do is export .dorico files from Cubase - MusicXML is not sufficient. Then all articulations and techniques can be properly retained, and I can work in Cubase, export to a .dorico file, and start cleaning up in Dorico. I think in order to do that, Steinberg would have to bring the Dorico rendering engine into Cubase. I would be happy with something like DP's QuickScribe and don't really need editing. Dorico's default rendering is fine and if it can bring in the articulations from the expression map that is ideal. I would be quite satisfied with that.

I think the biggest problem with integrating the Dorico engine into Cubase would probably be compatibility with existing files - how would the score data (which is probably stored completely differently than Dorico would) be converted over? I would presume that that is probably why it has not happened yet - Steinberg doesn't want to make scores from old versions of Cubase unreadable in new versions by removing features. But if it is a choice between retaining compatibility for the small percentage of users who use the score editor vs. getting much better functionality for everybody with the Dorico engine, I would rather they toss out the score editor.

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Re: Cubase/Dorico Integration?

Post by Ed Shearmur »

TheMaestro wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 5:53 pm
If you are excpecting playing your music with your MIDI device, firing up the Score Editor and get perfect scores in no time, you are dreaming. No scoring software is capable of doing so. Every page of a score requires a lot of work and fine adjustments. You need to learn the Score Editor in depth, strengthen your skills and speed up your workflow to be able to produce good looking scores quickly.

Maestro - I have to disagree with you. DP's quick scribe most often produces intelligible and printable pages with minimal intervention. There are many, many occasions I've needed to produce parts on the fly directly from the sequencer, and the transcription engine has been flawless. And we're talking about an element of the program that hasn't seen an update in years. It has many clunky features - as does the rest of the program (one reason why I've switched) I wouldn't use it for serious copying tasks. But the notion that "each page requires a lot of work and fine adjustments" simply doesn't have to be the case.
A program should be intelligent enough that it doesn't need telling what the prevailing note values, note lengths and rest values need to be be in a given passage of music. Choices of clef, Grand Staff etc. can and should be automatic. Inferences about the prevailing key should result in accidentals being appropriately and automatically displayed (For example if I'm obviously writing in the key of F, I should never see A# unless I ask for it. Brackets should appear consistently and automatically. I know, I know, there are workarounds for everything, but believe me, there are other programs that do this work with so much less fuss... Just because you're well acclimatized to the status quo, it doesn't mean in can't be improved!

Your posting of Greg Ondo's video later in this thread only reinforces this point. None of the steps that he has to go through to get an incredibly basic piece of music to look usable are necessary in other platforms.

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Re: Cubase/Dorico Integration?

Post by chikitin »

TheMaestro wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 5:53 pm
What I wanted to point out is the fact that the Score Editor's reputation is mostly based on hearsay, and posts such as those in this thread are not helping the situation.

It's hard to believe that someone using seriously the program can state that the Score Editor is light, poor, unprofessional, unintuitive. Intuitiveness of the program highly depends on your mastery of the software and your settings, key commands etc.
It's quite possible to produce beautiiful scores with the Score Editor quickly but it needs patience and learning.

If you are excpecting playing your music with your MIDI device, firing up the Score Editor and get perfect scores in no time, you are dreaming. No scoring software is capable of doing so. Every page of a score requires a lot of work and fine adjustments. You need to learn the Score Editor in depth, strengthen your skills and speed up your workflow to be able to produce good looking scores quickly.


Follow Steve's advice in the first place. The Score Editor has no secrets for him. He is a great example of a professional who speaks from real and vast experience. he also works with Dorico, so he knows both worlds. But as he said we are probably a small sample of the users in these forums.


The main goal of the Score Editor is not necessarily to just edit the MIDI data and prepare the notes for export and rework in another scoring program, but to produce and print professional scores directly from Cubase.

If you have specific needs as an engraver/publisher, in this case Dorico would most probably be the most natural choice.

That said, having Dorico in Cubase would be great of course, but this evolution does not seem to be planned for the moment, and in the meantime the Score Editor keeps on doing a great job not only as a "score editor", but it can very well be used as a standalone scoring program.

It is not just about Score editor capabilities! It constantly crashes that effect people performances. I had many examples of Score editor closing on me, crashing cubase, and not responsive do course clicks, behaving weird when notes are entered, etc. Let's new version of cubase Doribase or Curico with higher price and keep the original cubase as It is with the old (never to be updated) Score editor. Someone please tell me what are the enhancements and new features of Score editor since 2004 were we have Cubase SX3? Here is the manualftp://ftp.steinberg.net/Download/Cubase ... inting.pdf that is even richer in terms of the content than the current one in 2019!

We want this happen because Steinberg will be committed to upgrade the Score Editor consistently with DAW!
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Re: Cubase/Dorico Integration?

Post by Mackieguy »

While I love Cubase as the cornerstone of my composing environment, the Score Editor just looks bad and outdated. It feels like a science project to me. It's bad enough that I felt compelled to go out and buy Sibelius. And while Avid is a monster and Sibelius is it's kid brother, it makes me feel like a composer when I use it. Crazy, I know. But true. And that translates in to a better creative experience. When I discovered that I could use Rewire to sync the two apps together, I was so happy. That allowed me to seamlessly orchestrate side-by-side with recording new audio tracks, do SFX and sound design and adjust my tempo map as needed.

I'm not afraid of learning curves. Sibelius has a freaking, crazy learning CURVE! But the way it's laid out does not make me feel like a software engineer. Again, it makes me feel like a composer. I think one of the most important aspects of it is that IT LOOKS LIKE MANUSCRIPT PAPER! I know that might seem superficial, but it's not. It's great to see that as I enter notes in, it looks like notes on paper and not how Skynet might want it. It's inspiring.

However, editing MID and CC stuff in Sibelius SUCKS! lol And that's why I started investing in Dorico. Dorico is gorgeous and I LOVE the new MIDI capabilities introduced in Dorico 2.2. I think my fav feature is being able to adjust note start times without affecting the notation appearance - super effective if you are combining longs, legato and shorts on one stave/track. However, it's not Cubase and never will be (nor should be!). But when it comes to writing like a composer, it's even more inspiring than Sibelius BUT I CAN'T GET IT TO SYNC TO CUBASE - therefore I have to continue to use Sibelius. I've tried to use the Score Editor but it's just so... blah. I think it was probably GREAT when it first came out but it's no longer up to speed with the competition. It certainly doesn't seem to have the development that most other aspects of Cubase has. It almost feels like it's the family member that is tolerated at the annual family Christmas dinner because it's the dude that brought the napkins.

Steinberg needs to do better here. They are hitting the ball out of the park with the other parts of Cubase (I LOVE!!! Cubase 10!) But this area needs help. Give Score Editor a good Dorico-light makeover and/or at least get the Dorico guys on the phone and figure out how to make the two sibling apps work together beyond exporting MusicXML files.

Pretty please.

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Re: Cubase/Dorico Integration?

Post by chikitin »

Mackieguy wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 7:33 pm
While I love Cubase as the cornerstone of my composing environment, the Score Editor just looks bad and outdated. It feels like a science project to me. It's bad enough that I felt compelled to go out and buy Sibelius. And while Avid is a monster and Sibelius is it's kid brother, it makes me feel like a composer when I use it. Crazy, I know. But true. And that translates in to a better creative experience. When I discovered that I could use Rewire to sync the two apps together, I was so happy. That allowed me to seamlessly orchestrate side-by-side with recording new audio tracks, do SFX and sound design and adjust my tempo map as needed.

....

Steinberg needs to do better here. They are hitting the ball out of the park with the other parts of Cubase (I LOVE!!! Cubase 10!) But this area needs help. Give Score Editor a good Dorico-light makeover and/or at least get the Dorico guys on the phone and figure out how to make the two sibling apps work together beyond exporting MusicXML files.

Pretty please.
I hear you. You should completely divorce Finale and Sibelius to live with the old Score Editor. I have written hundreds of pages of music scores using Finale in the past. But they have their limitations as well, specially if you plan to compose something outside Orchestral music. I guess that is what we have so far. Now that Dorico is out there, it is harder for us to pitch our concerns to enhance Score editor! Even toy Notation software do Microtuner/quatertone scaling. Many things can be done, but like I said the old folks don't like to break their habits!

Sometimes, I tell myself, forget about all these and work with some open source DAW and Notation software and you have access to back end of the programs!
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Re: Cubase/Dorico Integration?

Post by drmq »

+1
I agree and I'm not even a Dorico user.

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Re: Cubase/Dorico Integration?

Post by mart »

Mackieguy wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 7:33 pm
While I love Cubase as the cornerstone of my composing environment, the Score Editor just looks bad and outdated. It feels like a science project to me. It's bad enough that I felt compelled to go out and buy Sibelius. And while Avid is a monster and Sibelius is it's kid brother, it makes me feel like a composer when I use it. Crazy, I know. But true. And that translates in to a better creative experience. When I discovered that I could use Rewire to sync the two apps together, I was so happy. That allowed me to seamlessly orchestrate side-by-side with recording new audio tracks, do SFX and sound design and adjust my tempo map as needed.

I'm not afraid of learning curves. Sibelius has a freaking, crazy learning CURVE! But the way it's laid out does not make me feel like a software engineer. Again, it makes me feel like a composer. I think one of the most important aspects of it is that IT LOOKS LIKE MANUSCRIPT PAPER! I know that might seem superficial, but it's not. It's great to see that as I enter notes in, it looks like notes on paper and not how Skynet might want it. It's inspiring.

However, editing MID and CC stuff in Sibelius SUCKS! lol And that's why I started investing in Dorico. Dorico is gorgeous and I LOVE the new MIDI capabilities introduced in Dorico 2.2. I think my fav feature is being able to adjust note start times without affecting the notation appearance - super effective if you are combining longs, legato and shorts on one stave/track. However, it's not Cubase and never will be (nor should be!). But when it comes to writing like a composer, it's even more inspiring than Sibelius BUT I CAN'T GET IT TO SYNC TO CUBASE - therefore I have to continue to use Sibelius. I've tried to use the Score Editor but it's just so... blah. I think it was probably GREAT when it first came out but it's no longer up to speed with the competition. It certainly doesn't seem to have the development that most other aspects of Cubase has. It almost feels like it's the family member that is tolerated at the annual family Christmas dinner because it's the dude that brought the napkins.

Steinberg needs to do better here. They are hitting the ball out of the park with the other parts of Cubase (I LOVE!!! Cubase 10!) But this area needs help. Give Score Editor a good Dorico-light makeover and/or at least get the Dorico guys on the phone and figure out how to make the two sibling apps work together beyond exporting MusicXML files.

Pretty please.
+1

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Re: scoring in 10.5

Post by Franklinspired »

It surprises me that to this day the integration of Dorico and Cubase is postponed over and over again.
As many suggested (for instance in the Dorico forum) that it would be a good idea to have Dorico Elements as a basic score-editor in Cubase and ditch the old score-editor. Working with both Dorico and Cubase, users are forced to have to work with different approaches and ways of doing things score-wise. From the very beginning the integration should have been important. How many more updates have to pass??

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Re: Cubase/Dorico Integration?

Post by Thomas19 »

I agree with everything Mackieguy says here.

I compose better in Sibelius, because I am used to working with pencil and paper, and the ability to copy and paste and transpose and other composing techniques are easier for me to see things in a notation program. Noteperformer is good enough (great really) to get an idea of what you are doing in Sibelius. However, no audio, terrible handling of VST's, nothing at all for continuous controllers, useless for keyswitches, etc, makes Sibelius a dinosaur for anything beyond Noteperformer, in my opinion.

So all I need is what Mackieguy says: simple sync between Dorico and Cubase so I can work with both, go back and forth, to do whatever is best suited to the work, but when I hit play they run in sync. I don't care which is the master or slave, as long as they can preferably both use the same sound device, but if not I have more than one anyway. At the moment I do this with Sibelius and Cubase via rewire. But I have been watching for two years to see when the time comes to make the inevitable switch from Sibelius to Dorico. Everyone will do this one day, because Dorico is getting better and better.

I tried out Dorico in its first version some time ago and decided that I would switch to Dorico as soon as it fulfilled the following conditions:

1) Better than Sibelius at handling VST's, loading and assigning sounds and better control over CC's, Keyswitches, etc.
2) Enough features and functionality as a professional notation program.
3) Integration with Noteperformer.
4) Ability to seamlessly sync to Cubase.

For me, all 4 conditions were deal-breakers. I just tried a 30-day trial of Dorico 3, and am excited to find the first three conditions are now fulfilled (and Dorico 3 does all of them really well.) But the fourth condition is still lacking, so I cannot make the switch. (Maybe the "3" of Dorico 3 means three out of four conditions now fulfilled. When they get to four I'm jumping the Sibelius ship.)

Dorico is now such a great program, but how can they expect someone like me (who uses Sibelius in Rewire in sync with Cubase) to come over to Dorico and go backwards in this crucial function?

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Re: Cubase/Dorico Integration?

Post by TweakGeek »

TheMaestro wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 7:03 pm
Just a humble question:
Does any of you actually use, or has any of you ever used the Score Editor?
I mean, really.
Ironically I only use the Score Editor in Cubase when preparing the score prior to moving it to Dorico, where I do most of the score editing to get it ready for printing, so yeah, definitely +1 for Cubase/Dorico integration of some kind.

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Re: Cubase/Dorico Integration?

Post by john charles »

+1

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Re: Cubase/Dorico Integration?

Post by sjanssens »

TweakGeek wrote:
Fri Dec 20, 2019 9:42 am
Ironically I only use the Score Editor in Cubase when preparing the score prior to moving it to Dorico, where I do most of the score editing to get it ready for printing, so yeah, definitely +1 for Cubase/Dorico integration of some kind.
I've used the Cubase score editor as a prep tool for Dorico as well; transfering the data via MusicXML. For my current project I composed within Dorico and exported MIDI to create the mock in Cubase. So I see value in integration in both directions.

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Re: Cubase/Dorico Integration?

Post by aaandima »

I too prefer integration in both directions. In my opinion it would be best to implement a solution based on network IP protocol which would be publicly documented. This would allow third party vendors to offer Cubase or Dorico modules for their own applications. Another advantage of such an interface would be network access to Cubase/Nuendo/Dorico, which I would generally welcome.

only suggestion:

In order to get the most out of such an interface, the solution could be introduced via the VST 3 plugin system. Music XML is a static solution via a file, my suggestion would provide network access to VST3. Each VST3 plugin can then communicate over IP what its capabilities are, and host applications such as Cubase would then be track based where the plugins in question have been inserted and act as a control center and distributor of "musical data streams", analogous to Midi interfaces.
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Re: Cubase/Dorico Integration?

Post by ldg75 »

I think that a Cubase/Dorico integration may be similar to what happen in Studio One and Notion: two separate products with a fast way to interchange contents and enjoy the power of each software.
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Re: Cubase/Dorico Integration?

Post by chikitin »

For me replacing note entry and editing of score editor with the ones from Dorico and fully integration of dorico like wavelab and spectralayer In cubase.
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Re: Cubase/Dorico Integration?

Post by reztes »

+1 to the sync feature between Cubase and Dorico. They may share the video, the markers, the tempo track, the instruments and even the flow system (which would be fantastic in Cubase to score different parts of the same video and preventing the first to change the second one in any aspect -especially tempo-).

When Steinberg announced Dorico, a lot of people though of this possibility. It's been 4 years now... They should do something. They don't have to ditch the old score editor.

I've watched the Alan Silvestri video about how he uses Dorico and Cubase and it's fantastic. It would be even better if you can have both programs opened in sync (and without destroying the performance of your computer, of course).

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Re: Cubase/Dorico Integration?

Post by chikitin »

For cost, They could make it like NEK for Nuendo and sell the integration just like NEK for Nuendo pre 8. We understand this is two product and folks who really really need it would pay the extra cost!
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VST Connect Pro, NI Komplete 5, EWQLSO, HSO, GA 5
Synths: Yamaha PSR-A3000, Roland Fantom XR
Interface: Steinberg MR-816CSX, UR 22 mkII
Effects: Rocktron DSP, Lexicon MPX 550
Controller: Steinberg CC121, Yamaha KX25,49,88, Korg Nano Kontrol, Boss RC 300, Yamaha MFC 10, CMC-PD

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