VCA BUG?

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Getalife2
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Re: VCA BUG?

Post by Getalife2 » Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:21 pm

Bugs and their workarounds have been a constant part of life since I bought an Atari St in 1987 and programmed my first hit record without any Live players.

I've been completely inside the box since 1999 I never have used Pro Tools in the process. Just not a fan although it is so much better than it used to be.

My point is I've kind of seen and done it all. Never have waited for Developers to comply with my wishes in the future. Find the best tool and then find the best workarounds to make it your own in spite of the things but are not to your preference. Workarounds have been, are and will be a fact of life. I wholeheartedly agree that aspecific VCA workaround thread would be brilliant.

I would nominate MattiasNYC kick it off if he would since I think he knows more about this than anybody else at this point. Possibly even Steinberg! hehe
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Re: VCA BUG?

Post by Helidream » Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:38 am

The problem with those VCA bugs, is that solving them would probably produce some level changes in mixes that have been done with VCAs in previous versions. Not sure about that but it is probable.

This is probably one of the reasons why they are still not fixed.

A solution would be to propose a new automation engine, and select it for new projects, but keep the older engine for projects saved before the new engine introduction.

A new automation engine should allow as well to give a chance to introduce an object oriented automation as opposed to the actual (i consider it legacy) track oriented engine.
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Re: VCA BUG?

Post by stingray » Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:59 am

twelvetwelve wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:49 pm
Here's a really simple example:

- Create one audio track and 1 VCA fader (both at unity)
- Link the audio track to the VCA (both faders still at unity)
- Reduce the level of the VCA by -12dB (both faders now at -12dB)

Now, what if you want to add 3dB of level to a particular section on your audio track with some automation? Logically you'd expect that your audio track should be at -9dB for that section with the rest of the track still at -12dB. What happens is your actual level is now at -24dB with -21dB (for the +3dB section)...
Not seeing -24dB with -21dB here. I see -12dB and -9dB. :? What am I missing? How do you make that happen?

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Re: VCA BUG?

Post by MattiasNYC » Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:53 pm

Helidream wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:38 am
The problem with those VCA bugs, is that solving them would probably produce some level changes in mixes that have been done with VCAs in previous versions. Not sure about that but it is probable.
Actually, I don't think that's necessarily true though. From what I've seen most issues have been happening when the user has done something and the result was clearly wrong. So it seems to me that loading up an old project with "wrong" automation should work fine and that the user probably wouldn't notice something "off" in the new project until actually using the VCA/connected tracks. But that "off" in the newer project would then be correct functionally.

I could be wrong about this, but that's how it strikes me.
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Re: VCA BUG?

Post by twelvetwelve » Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:08 pm

stingray wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:59 am
twelvetwelve wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:49 pm
Here's a really simple example:

- Create one audio track and 1 VCA fader (both at unity)
- Link the audio track to the VCA (both faders still at unity)
- Reduce the level of the VCA by -12dB (both faders now at -12dB)

Now, what if you want to add 3dB of level to a particular section on your audio track with some automation? Logically you'd expect that your audio track should be at -9dB for that section with the rest of the track still at -12dB. What happens is your actual level is now at -24dB with -21dB (for the +3dB section)...
Not seeing -24dB with -21dB here. I see -12dB and -9dB. :? What am I missing? How do you make that happen?
https://imgur.com/a/IY8he3x and also there's this one which wrecks mixes too https://imgur.com/a/lPzwPrf

I've confirmed both still happen exactly the same in 10.1. Here's Pro Tools which works exactly as expected - https://imgur.com/a/kZoc7rx

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Re: VCA BUG?

Post by stingray » Sat Jul 06, 2019 1:19 am

OK got it. I can repro this and the other one too. The strange thing is if you use the audio channel's fader to write the +3dB automation this problem does not occur (this is what I was doing). So the problem occurs when you use the automation editor or write new points on the automation track... very odd behaviour.

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Re: VCA BUG?

Post by twelvetwelve » Sat Jul 06, 2019 4:45 am

If you have an initial start point then you should be okay but if the track contains no automation then you should get one of the other behaviors. Using the fader using punch preview will result in the incorrect offset.

It's not just odd behavior but it's downright dangerous if you're not aware of what it's doing. I've had mixes where clients have asked for small changes on tracks with no automation not realizing that in doing so my entire balance was ruined. Thankfully there are other DAWs where this works as expected.

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Re: VCA BUG?

Post by Helidream » Sat Jul 06, 2019 8:24 am

MattiasNYC wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:53 pm

Actually, I don't think that's necessarily true though. From what I've seen most issues have been happening when the user has done something and the result was clearly wrong. So it seems to me that loading up an old project with "wrong" automation should work fine and that the user probably wouldn't notice something "off" in the new project until actually using the VCA/connected tracks. But that "off" in the newer project would then be correct functionally.

I could be wrong about this, but that's how it strikes me.
Ok. Anyway it's always possible to manage an engine change. It has been done in many softwares, for example Capture One in the photography world, where regular raw development engine changes have been implemented.

When opening an older project, it is asked to the user if he wants to convert to the new engine. Simple and efficient.

Using this technique, it is even possible to drop the older engine support in new software releases. Then in this case the user has no other choice than converting the project to the new engine.
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JLCooper MCS3800 (Mixing and Transport) - AKAI AFX + Midi translator Pro (Control Room) - TouchOSC Android (Personal Monitoring Controller) Control surfaces.
Rogers LS3/5a proximity monitors.
Sony PCM-7040 DAT - TASCAM HD-P2 recorder - PTV PT5210 Digital sync generator - Steinberg Timebase - Adam Smith ZETA3 synchronizers.
Lindos LA100 audio analyzer, HP 5372A frequency and time interval analyzer, Siglent SDG2042X signal generator - Tektronix TDS5000 scope - Efratom 10 MHz rubidium clock - HP Z3816A GPS frequency standard.

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Re: VCA BUG?

Post by Oliver.Lucas » Sat Jul 06, 2019 8:33 am

Getalife2 wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:21 pm
Bugs and their workarounds have been a constant part of life since I bought an Atari St in 1987 and programmed my first hit record without any Live players.

I've been completely inside the box since 1999 I never have used Pro Tools in the process. Just not a fan although it is so much better than it used to be.

My point is I've kind of seen and done it all. Never have waited for Developers to comply with my wishes in the future. Find the best tool and then find the best workarounds to make it your own in spite of the things but are not to your preference. Workarounds have been, are and will be a fact of life. I wholeheartedly agree that aspecific VCA workaround thread would be brilliant.

I would nominate MattiasNYC kick it off if he would since I think he knows more about this than anybody else at this point. Possibly even Steinberg! hehe
The problem here is that

a. this has been around since vcas have been introduced, so arguably the feature is still unusable after 4 years
b. the result of this bug is so serious, it is not something you can risk forgetting to work around.
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Re: VCA BUG?

Post by Helidream » Sat Jul 06, 2019 9:33 am

The more i think to that, the more i think that an automation engine change, with previous projects conversions would be the safer solution.

It would clearly isolate previous mixes from unwanted level changes, and would allow to implement a fully new engine, specially an object (event) oriented engine that would be welcome to catch up with competition.

Track oriented automation is something that tends to prevent sound designers from making easy dynamic changes and easily move events in mixes in a error free context. The track automation technique according to me is clearly something of the past, coming from the tape machine world where it was not possible to move audio events.

When working with a software that do allow object oriented mixing, it is a hassle to come back to a track oriented automation software.

DOP should never have been implemented. It should have been implemented as a true event oriented automation engine (event online processing), with offline processing (DOP) as an option to freeze automation on events that do not need anymore dynamic automation - to free up resources.

Another advantage of doing that instead of fixing the old engine, is that it is sometimes desirable to rewrite code instead of modifying it, specially when it is old complex code eventually badly structured or badly commented, or when original programmers dead leave the boat in the meantime.

If those VCA bugs have not been fixed since 4 years again i think that there is a reason and a radical decision is needed now for Nuendo 11.
Comps+OS: PC Intel Core i7 six core 's - X79 Chipset - 256 Go SATA SSD - 1 To SATA Hard disk, 16 Go RAM - Win 7 Pro 64 Dual 27" monitors - AMD Firepro V7900 video card - Nuendo 8.3.20.
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JLCooper MCS3800 (Mixing and Transport) - AKAI AFX + Midi translator Pro (Control Room) - TouchOSC Android (Personal Monitoring Controller) Control surfaces.
Rogers LS3/5a proximity monitors.
Sony PCM-7040 DAT - TASCAM HD-P2 recorder - PTV PT5210 Digital sync generator - Steinberg Timebase - Adam Smith ZETA3 synchronizers.
Lindos LA100 audio analyzer, HP 5372A frequency and time interval analyzer, Siglent SDG2042X signal generator - Tektronix TDS5000 scope - Efratom 10 MHz rubidium clock - HP Z3816A GPS frequency standard.

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Re: VCA BUG?

Post by paaltio » Sat Jul 06, 2019 2:00 pm

Tajika wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:37 pm
Writing an initial automation point to the track's automation lane solves the problem.
I was just thinking the other day that I keep doing this out of habit at this point, because surely the problem has been fixed by now and I just haven't noticed it in the release notes! Crazy that this is still an issue.
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Re: VCA BUG?

Post by Oliver.Lucas » Sat Jul 06, 2019 3:29 pm

Helidream wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 9:33 am
The more i think to that, the more i think that an automation engine change, with previous projects conversions would be the safer solution.

It would clearly isolate previous mixes from unwanted level changes, and would allow to implement a fully new engine, specially an object (event) oriented engine that would be welcome to catch up with competition.

Track oriented automation is something that tends to prevent sound designers from making easy dynamic changes and easily move events in mixes in a error free context. The track automation technique according to me is clearly something of the past, coming from the tape machine world where it was not possible to move audio events.

When working with a software that do allow object oriented mixing, it is a hassle to come back to a track oriented automation software.

DOP should never have been implemented. It should have been implemented as a true event oriented automation engine (event online processing), with offline processing (DOP) as an option to freeze automation on events that do not need anymore dynamic automation - to free up resources.

Another advantage of doing that instead of fixing the old engine, is that it is sometimes desirable to rewrite code instead of modifying it, specially when it is old complex code eventually badly structured or badly commented, or when original programmers dead leave the boat in the meantime.

If those VCA bugs have not been fixed since 4 years again i think that there is a reason and a radical decision is needed now for Nuendo 11.
Well, I had campaigned for object based automation for at least a decade here, at no avail. Interestingly PT automation (although track based) works so reliable that you can use it as plugin snaphot automation per clip with 100% reliability, something I had hoped/asked for for a very long time in Nuendo.
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Re: VCA BUG?

Post by MattiasNYC » Sat Jul 06, 2019 3:44 pm

Helidream wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 8:24 am
Ok. Anyway it's always possible to manage an engine change.
Well we'll hopefully see at some point whether a rewrite that isn't directly backwards compatible is required or not. I'm hoping it isn't of course.
Oliver.Lucas wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 8:33 am
The problem here is that

a. this has been around since vcas have been introduced, so arguably the feature is still unusable after 4 years
b. the result of this bug is so serious, it is not something you can risk forgetting to work around.
I think "a" follows from "b" actually. So for someone who is acutely aware of this and sets up templates with pre-existing automation points and also keeps an eye on things then VCAs are usable. But you're right, for a new user this is not good.

At this point I'm thinking that even an "ugly" workaround in programming might suffice. Clearly there's something wonky with the logic at some point, but perhaps the programmers workaround is to simply always write automation points regardless of the status of the slave channel. In other words in the examples shown earlier here instead of just lowering the 'fader' of the slave track also then write an automation point at the beginning of that track.

Of course there are probably implications of that which will be annoying, but it'd arguably be equal to the manual workaround we need right now anyway (automation point written by us),and what we're really losing is I suppose "virgin territory" which I'm guessing many aren't using (and I have my opinions about its implementation as well).

Like I said, I think that's probably a pretty "ugly" solution, but maybe that's one way of going about it. I could have missed something of course, I'm only on today's first cup of coffee...
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Re: VCA BUG?

Post by twelvetwelve » Sat Jul 06, 2019 5:43 pm

No more bandage workarounds please. They are fundamentally flawed and are also lacking in functionality compared to what Pro Tools does with VCAs.

Just tear them down and get them right like they should have been done 4 years ago.

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Re: VCA BUG?

Post by Helidream » Sun Jul 07, 2019 5:37 pm

Oliver.Lucas wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 3:29 pm

Well, I had campaigned for object based automation for at least a decade here, at no avail. Interestingly PT automation (although track based) works so reliable that you can use it as plugin snaphot automation per clip with 100% reliability, something I had hoped/asked for for a very long time in Nuendo.
Yes and Yamaha know that it is a very sensitive subject - for example because of this locked thread :

viewtopic.php?f=186&t=56210
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MR816csx - UR44 - MOTU 828 mkIII audio interfaces.
JLCooper MCS3800 (Mixing and Transport) - AKAI AFX + Midi translator Pro (Control Room) - TouchOSC Android (Personal Monitoring Controller) Control surfaces.
Rogers LS3/5a proximity monitors.
Sony PCM-7040 DAT - TASCAM HD-P2 recorder - PTV PT5210 Digital sync generator - Steinberg Timebase - Adam Smith ZETA3 synchronizers.
Lindos LA100 audio analyzer, HP 5372A frequency and time interval analyzer, Siglent SDG2042X signal generator - Tektronix TDS5000 scope - Efratom 10 MHz rubidium clock - HP Z3816A GPS frequency standard.

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Re: VCA BUG?

Post by lovegames » Fri Nov 01, 2019 7:26 am

This has to be fixed for current versions of both Cubase and Nuendo. NO WAY I am paying to get this fixed.

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Re: VCA BUG?

Post by lovegames » Sun Nov 03, 2019 9:44 pm

twelvetwelve wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:08 pm
stingray wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:59 am
twelvetwelve wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:49 pm
Here's a really simple example:

- Create one audio track and 1 VCA fader (both at unity)
- Link the audio track to the VCA (both faders still at unity)
- Reduce the level of the VCA by -12dB (both faders now at -12dB)

Now, what if you want to add 3dB of level to a particular section on your audio track with some automation? Logically you'd expect that your audio track should be at -9dB for that section with the rest of the track still at -12dB. What happens is your actual level is now at -24dB with -21dB (for the +3dB section)...
Not seeing -24dB with -21dB here. I see -12dB and -9dB. :? What am I missing? How do you make that happen?
>>> https://imgur.com/a/IY8he3x <<< and also there's this one which wrecks mixes too https://imgur.com/a/lPzwPrf

I've confirmed both still happen exactly the same in 10.1. Here's Pro Tools which works exactly as expected - https://imgur.com/a/kZoc7rx
Here is the workaround for the first. This may be how it is supposed to be used and was probably overlooked because in this case, no automation has been used yet - but it appears to work for non-automated fader levels as well.
Image

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Re: VCA BUG?

Post by twelvetwelve » Tue Nov 05, 2019 4:29 am

Not an ideal workaround unfortunately. They simply need to get fixed and made usable.

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Re: VCA BUG?

Post by lovegames » Tue Nov 05, 2019 5:34 am

twelvetwelve wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 4:29 am
Not an ideal workaround unfortunately. They simply need to get fixed and made usable.
I can foresee in some instances where this workaround would indeed be a problem because you require the VCA to have more play room than the +6db from 0db if you are doing a big VCA controlled volume sweep.

But I'm pretty sure that would be the only instance where this workaround wouldn't work? What are you thinking?


*edit*

If the above became a problem, you could probably then unlink the VCA from the channels, and then position the VCA fader as needed, and then re-link them. Haven't tested this.

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Re: VCA BUG?

Post by MattiasNYC » Tue Nov 05, 2019 5:59 am

I would still just use an initial automation node instead. As far as I recall it's solved more than one problem so it seems more "convenient" that way.
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Re: VCA BUG?

Post by lovegames » Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:36 am

MattiasNYC wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 5:59 am
I would still just use an initial automation node instead. As far as I recall it's solved more than one problem so it seems more "convenient" that way.
I don't get it but I'll try.

So right off the get go, in your templates all your tracks with VCA have an automation node at time-0 and at 0db and then... do you leave Read on, or do you take it off?

If you left it on, you would no longer have individual fader control as the faders would jump back to 0db.

If you left them off Read with the one node, then once you go to automate and Read turns on you will have to adjust that node.

Doesn't seem very fader-tangible to me. This would maybe work if you are mostly doing event based volume editing and leaving your faders at 0.

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Re: VCA BUG?

Post by MattiasNYC » Tue Nov 05, 2019 2:57 pm

I have my tracks in some sort of automation mode by default. There's virtually no case where I won't be printing automation to an area anyway so I've just gotten used to having tracks armed at all time.

So for example I'll have dialog tracks set to automation enable, touch trim. Faders will rest at zero and whenever I touch a fader to adjust level it'll be with the project playing back and me writing that automation (trim). It'll be an offset but that's fine since using event levels the dialog will live close to -24LKFS already after editing it.

If I ever need to adjust levels "freely" over a section it's going to be a case where my punch-out is going to fill a range anyway, so I have a macro that adjust settings to loop playback/fill loop/preview. Then I adjust and hit a key to punch out.

My workflow is almost exactly the same in Pro Tools.
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Re: VCA BUG?

Post by lovegames » Tue Nov 05, 2019 4:28 pm

MattiasNYC wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 2:57 pm
I have my tracks in some sort of automation mode by default. There's virtually no case where I won't be printing automation to an area anyway so I've just gotten used to having tracks armed at all time.

So for example I'll have dialog tracks set to automation enable, touch trim. Faders will rest at zero and whenever I touch a fader to adjust level it'll be with the project playing back and me writing that automation (trim). It'll be an offset but that's fine since using event levels the dialog will live close to -24LKFS already after editing it.

If I ever need to adjust levels "freely" over a section it's going to be a case where my punch-out is going to fill a range anyway, so I have a macro that adjust settings to loop playback/fill loop/preview. Then I adjust and hit a key to punch out.

My workflow is almost exactly the same in Pro Tools.
Interesting, you should do a video of how you work, sounds interesting.

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Re: VCA BUG?

Post by twelvetwelve » Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:06 pm

That might work for post but it's terrible workflow for music production.

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Re: VCA BUG?

Post by lovegames » Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:11 pm

twelvetwelve wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:06 pm
That might work for post but it's terrible workflow for music production.
Pretty much yea

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