Group FX bleed

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Eaygee
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Group FX bleed

Post by Eaygee » Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:17 am

The Group fx bleed has been an issue for too long. When I have group channels set up and I'm doing a dub mix when I pull down the volume on the group channel the fx's from the tracks that are assigned to the group should not bleed through.. This is a client killer... Hard enough to get reggae producers to want to use Nuendo in the first place but when simple things like a reggae dub can't be done easy because of fx bleed makes the program look amateur... I can do this on Protools all day hence one of the reason most of Jamaica still uses it.
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Dietz
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Re: Group FX bleed

Post by Dietz » Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:38 am

Don't kill your clients! :lol: I don't know about "Group FX bleed" ... are you sure that you didn't just miss a Preference setting, eg. one of these ...? (... see attached screenshot)

Keep in mind that Nuendo is (and has always been) much more customizable than ProTools, which is why most of us use it. :mrgreen:
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Re: Group FX bleed

Post by MattiasNYC » Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:39 pm

Yeah, I also don't understand what "group fx bleed" means. Perhaps you can describe it in better detail. And it should maybe be a question in the general section rather than a feature request (to 'not bleed').
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Re: Group FX bleed

Post by Eaygee » Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:34 pm

MattiasNYC wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:39 pm
Yeah, I also don't understand what "group fx bleed" means. Perhaps you can describe it in better detail. And it should maybe be a question in the general section rather than a feature request (to 'not bleed').
It's a feature that needs to implemented or fixed.... So you know Make an audio track. set up an fx channel using delay or reverb. In your audio track use a send of that fx. Now assign that audio track out to a group channel. Pull the volume down on the group channel. the Audio track it self will be silenced but the fx send on the audio track will still be heard. That's an issue Steinberg has known for a long time and still refuses to address... For the type of music I do which is reggae/dub that kills business becasue being able to do use the groups is essential and you can do drop outs and dubs with fx bleed.
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Re: Group FX bleed

Post by Eaygee » Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:39 pm

Dietz wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:38 am
Don't kill your clients! :lol: I don't know about "Group FX bleed" ... are you sure that you didn't just miss a Preference setting, eg. one of these ...? (... see attached screenshot)

Keep in mind that Nuendo is (and has always been) much more customizable than ProTools, which is why most of us use it. :mrgreen:
That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the faders not mutes. When you pull down a group fader that has an audio track assinged to it that is using sends on that audio track you will still hear the fx's of the sends of the audio track when the group volume is pulled down.. it's easy to reproduce. make an audio track and fx track(reverb or delay) set up the send on the audio track assign the out of the audio track to a group pull down the volume of the group the audio track volume will silence but you will still here the fx of audio track send.... that's a bad thing for reggae/dub
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Re: Group FX bleed

Post by Dietz » Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:27 pm

That's a conceptual error on your side. You either need to use a VCA, or you could also route the FX return to the Group which you pull down.
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Re: Group FX bleed

Post by Eaygee » Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:52 pm

Dietz wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:27 pm
That's a conceptual error on your side. You either need to use a VCA, or you could also route the FX return to the Group which you pull down.
No that's a design flaw. Because no other program would I have to use VCA to do that. If i'm using a mxing board and asign tracks to the groups if I pull down the groups everything go silent. Plus VCA's have an issue as well. Nuendo forgets the settings of them unless you go psychically put a keyframe at the start of every track and that's nonsense as well... Steinberg needs to just fix this.
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Re: Group FX bleed

Post by Dietz » Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:30 am

Eaygee wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:52 pm
[...] If i'm using a mxing board and asign tracks to the groups if I pull down the groups everything go silent.[...]
Maybe we have to define the term "Group": In Nuendo-lingo that's a sub-mix, a.k.a. "bus". Now, thinking about all the Neves, SSLs, APIs, Tridents, Allan & Heaths (etc.) consoles I mixed on during the last 35 years, there's no way that the AUX send of a contributing track will go silent if you just pull down the Group-fader, unless the FX-return is routed to this Group, too.

Maybe you're expecting a fader-link? That's another available feature in Nuendo.

... you're right about the VCA-related hickups in Nuendo, though.
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Re: Group FX bleed

Post by MattiasNYC » Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:30 am

I'm with Dietz on this one. It seems either there's a fundamental misunderstanding somewhere or you're translating terminology the wrong way.

Pro Tools "groups" = Nuendo "linked channels"
Pro Tools "auxes" = Nuendo "groups"
Eaygee wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:34 pm
It's a feature that needs to implemented or fixed.... So you know Make an audio track. set up an fx channel using delay or reverb. In your audio track use a send of that fx. Now assign that audio track out to a group channel. Pull the volume down on the group channel. the Audio track it self will be silenced but the fx send on the audio track will still be heard. That's an issue Steinberg has known for a long time and still refuses to address... For the type of music I do which is reggae/dub that kills business becasue being able to do use the groups is essential and you can do drop outs and dubs with fx bleed.
Uhm….. I don't see how this is different in PT if by "Group" you mean what is called "Aux" in Pro Tools. You send pre-/post-fader, but since you aren't touching the audio track faders whatever the sends are set to won't matter. If you drop the group/aux level in either app the send is still active.

It really does sound to me like you need to either pull down the faders on the audio tracks which may mean you want to "link" them ("group" in PT), or you'll drop the level there by using VCAs, as Dietz mentioned.

I literally can't think of a way to even do what you say in Pro Tools. Moving the "aux" fader changes the audio on the output of the group, after all the audio tracks, sends etc. Not sure how that can be different.
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Re: Group FX bleed

Post by Eaygee » Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:59 am

Dietz wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:30 am
Eaygee wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:52 pm
[...] If i'm using a mxing board and asign tracks to the groups if I pull down the groups everything go silent.[...]
Maybe we have to define the term "Group": In Nuendo-lingo that's a sub-mix, a.k.a. "bus". Now, thinking about all the Neves, SSLs, APIs, Tridents, Allan & Heaths (etc.) consoles I mixed on during the last 35 years, there's no way that the AUX send of a contributing track will go silent if you just pull down the Group-fader, unless the FX-return is routed to this Group, too.

Maybe you're expecting a fader-link? That's another available feature in Nuendo.

... you're right about the VCA-related hickups in Nuendo, though.
Actually that's not true about the big boards I use one everyday. Nuendo use to do it as well up until Nuendo 4 then it started having this issue. They changed something in the Kernel. It use to be the same with the Group Mutes then in Nuendo 7 they fixed the group mute button now when you press mute no audio track send bleed. They just didn't fix the Group fader issue.
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Re: Group FX bleed

Post by Dietz » Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:43 am

Eaygee wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:59 am
[...]It use to be the same with the Group Mutes then in Nuendo 7 they fixed the group mute button now when you press mute no audio track send bleed. They just didn't fix the Group fader issue.
Did you actually look at the screenshot I posted above? That's what the marked Preference takes care for.
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Re: Group FX bleed

Post by Eaygee » Fri Jan 10, 2020 10:59 am

Dietz wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:43 am
Eaygee wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:59 am
[...]It use to be the same with the Group Mutes then in Nuendo 7 they fixed the group mute button now when you press mute no audio track send bleed. They just didn't fix the Group fader issue.
Did you actually look at the screenshot I posted above? That's what the marked Preference takes care for.
Been had those checked doesn't make a difference.
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Re: Group FX bleed

Post by Dietz » Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:19 am

Hm ... you should try to give Steinberg a step-by-step repro of the problem, ideally with a little demo-project. You won't get much support for your concern as long as nobody faces the same issue.
/Dietz

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Re: Group FX bleed

Post by MattiasNYC » Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:35 pm

Eaygee wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:59 am
Actually that's not true about the big boards I use one everyday.
Can you please confirm the terminology you use is correct? Can you translate it into Pro Tools language so we all know that we're talking about the same thing?

You're not going to get any new features implemented until Steinberg knows what you need and until we know it isn't just some misunderstanding.

You could even post a video of you doing what you need in Pro Tools and we can look at that.
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Re: Group FX bleed

Post by Eaygee » Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:31 pm

MattiasNYC wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:35 pm
Eaygee wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:59 am
Actually that's not true about the big boards I use one everyday.
Can you please confirm the terminology you use is correct? Can you translate it into Pro Tools language so we all know that we're talking about the same thing?

You're not going to get any new features implemented until Steinberg knows what you need and until we know it isn't just some misunderstanding.

You could even post a video of you doing what you need in Pro Tools and we can look at that.
Here is link to download a sample project. https://drive.google.com/open?id=1zkjeF ... FBtY7_lU If you notice the group volume is pulled down and you can still here the fx of the audio track send, but if you mute the group channel the fx's of the audio track goes away. the same thing that happen when you pressed mute should happen when you pull the group volume down.
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Re: Group FX bleed

Post by MattiasNYC » Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:11 pm

Can you show it in PT instead? Show it working in PT.

I won't be in front of Nuendo today I think...
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Re: Group FX bleed

Post by Eaygee » Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:30 pm

MattiasNYC wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:11 pm
Can you show it in PT instead? Show it working in PT.

I won't be in front of Nuendo today I think...
Won't be in front of protools for a couple of days. WE don't use it here. Problem isn't protools it's Nuendo.
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Re: Group FX bleed

Post by MattiasNYC » Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:44 pm

I understand that you're saying the problem is Nuendo, what I'm saying is that since you mentioned this could be done in Pro Tools, and since I don't see how that's possible, it would be good if you could show us in Pro Tools how it's done so we can be sure we aren't missing something.

I still don't think it can be done there the way you describe it, and I don't think it's ever worked this way in Nuendo. At least I can't recall it. And it also don't "feel" like standard functionality, unless I'm missing something.
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Re: Group FX bleed

Post by MattiasNYC » Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:45 pm

I just tried it in PT btw.
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