An open plea to Steinberg

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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by ckon » Wed Dec 09, 2015 9:53 am

I find it kind of amusing to read, not only in this thread, the impossible demands the users set.
I sincerely hope you are not sitting there chuckling away at other peoples frustrations;-)


Kennedy’s famous message to Congress on May 25, 1961, set the goal:

This nation should commit itself to achieving the goal, before the decade is out, of landing a man on the moon and returning him safely to the earth.


Everyone knows what happens next (apart from those of this world who choose to believe the conspiracy theories)
This comparison falls down but shows that goalposts are constantly shifting, 'The impossible demands' are now that Steinberg addreses a number of issues. Achievable? a resounding yes, as Kennedy shows it was with his challenge.


updated: to keep this thread on target.
Last edited by ckon on Thu Dec 10, 2015 9:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by noiseboyuk » Wed Dec 09, 2015 10:08 am

peakae wrote:I find it kind of amusing to read, not only in this thread, the impossible demands the users set.
We want bug fixes, workflow enhancement, and new features that are better than in any other daw.
During the Cubase 4-5-6 cycle people would complain endlessly about the toy mixer.
Cubase 7 arrives, and people complain about the new mixer that no one asked for, and that the arranger does not have the right look.
Cubase 8 arrives and people complain about new stuff, we want workflow enhancement.
Cubase 8.5 arrives that primarily has workflow enhancement, and people complain about missing bug fixes, and to many shiny new stuff. ???

And hey I'm not better than anybody else, it's only human to be carried away when there is something you feel passionate about.
But where is the realism.
Steinberg is a tiny company, even though they are owned by Yamaha that makes little difference when it comes to the actual coding of their products. How are they to satisfy all those contradicting demands, and still make a living ?
IMHO they do a great job balancing the needs of their costumers, all things considered.
I have a lot of sympathy for this. It's undeniable that as a community of users, people are always clamouring for different things, complaining about whatever has just been changed etc. And of course it's Steinberg's job to push through new changes that are ultimately better, and also field and prioritise the vast number of requests and fixes.

But that really is exactly what this thread is about. Do we keep on rolling down the tracks on this runaway train, or do we try and have a period of consolidation? Take the new mixer in 7. From day one I personally thought it was an improvement conceptually, but it needed some time to get to where it is now (still not perfect, I'm not a fan of the new sends / insert display which I can no longer read or understand is everything now says "drr...rb1" or something equally incomprehensible). But of course at this stage I don't want them to throw it all out and start again or far worse bring back the old one (which, now that the new mixer has matured, everyone seems to have forgotten about), I want them to keep improving it.

And that goes for the whole DAW. Disabled tracks - with each passing day people are realising what a revolutionary concept that is and how it can completely change how we work. But since introduced, it is still way too buggy which really precludes its general use. In practice, that means that the revolution it should have ushered in is greatly stunted. They've had the Big Idea (GREAT!), implemented it, and left it hanging. Fix the bugs and improve the workflow (eg just clicking on a disabled track will enable it as a background task as an option) and suddenly it moves from a niche feature to something everyone can easily embrace.

It's easy to look at the past, shrug and say "it has always been thus". And of course it has, there's nothing new in any of this. The issue really is that with every release, it gets more acute - as the program gets bigger and bigger with more and more bolted on to it, the situation keeps getting worse. At some point, one feels, someone has to call "enough", and take more time and resources than is normally allocated simply to managing all the current issues. The status quo needs to be re-evaluated.
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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by matjones » Wed Dec 09, 2015 10:21 am

Seinberg are WELL capable of sorting this out, personally i would welcome a period of consolidation as has been mentioned.... i remember when C6 was released and the sheer joy it caused the majority of users, i remember a large amount of us commenting that it was 'Steinberg's windows 7' as for most of us it just worked straight out of the box, as it SHOULD do really.... seriously WELL DONE STEINY on that one! The forum chatter at that time was generally incredibly positive too from memory..... if i can analogise this to Formula 1; Cubase to me currently feels like the Williams or Force India teams on a good day, SUPERB on long straights where pure grunt and a slippery aerodynamic profile but crap in mid speed corners which is where the speed is really found, when they should be aiming to reach Mercedes' current level or better!
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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by Guillermo » Wed Dec 09, 2015 11:56 am

Hello everyone,

Just letting you know that we take your feedback seriously: one of the reasons our Marketing Director Frank Simmerlein requested me to post the following:

Dear customers,
Rest assured we carefully monitor the forums but that due to the overwhelming response to last week's 8.5 release while at the same time preparing next week's Cubase 8.0.35 release, we're struggling with the current workload. We will respond with details ASAP and are asking you to bear with us a little longer. Excuse us for not getting back to you any sooner.

Best regards,
Frank Simmerlein


Best regards,
GN
Guillermo Navarrete, Online Product Specialist
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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by mbr » Wed Dec 09, 2015 12:16 pm

Guillermo wrote:Hello everyone,

Just letting you know that we take your feedback seriously: one of the reasons our Marketing Director Frank Simmerlein requested me to post the following:

Dear customers,
Rest assured we carefully monitor the forums but that due to the overwhelming response to last week's 8.5 release while at the same time preparing next week's Cubase 8.0.35 release, we're struggling with the current workload. We will respond with details ASAP and are asking you to bear with us a little longer. Excuse us for not getting back to you any sooner.

Best regards,
Frank Simmerlein


Best regards,
GN

GM

Thank you for the reply ! 8-)

This is fantastic news ! :)

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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by ckon » Wed Dec 09, 2015 12:44 pm

Guillermo wrote:Hello everyone,

Just letting you know that we take your feedback seriously: one of the reasons our Marketing Director Frank Simmerlein requested me to post the following:

Dear customers,
Rest assured we carefully monitor the forums but that due to the overwhelming response to last week's 8.5 release while at the same time preparing next week's Cubase 8.0.35 release, we're struggling with the current workload. We will respond with details ASAP and are asking you to bear with us a little longer. Excuse us for not getting back to you any sooner.

Best regards,
Frank Simmerlein


Best regards,
GN
Thank you, will await more info.
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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by indiescore » Wed Dec 09, 2015 6:10 pm

Guillermo wrote:Hello everyone,

Just letting you know that we take your feedback seriously: one of the reasons our Marketing Director Frank Simmerlein requested me to post the following:

Dear customers,
Rest assured we carefully monitor the forums but that due to the overwhelming response to last week's 8.5 release while at the same time preparing next week's Cubase 8.0.35 release, we're struggling with the current workload. We will respond with details ASAP and are asking you to bear with us a little longer. Excuse us for not getting back to you any sooner.

Best regards,
Frank Simmerlein


Best regards,
GN
Good to see, thank you.
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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by noiseboyuk » Wed Dec 09, 2015 6:21 pm

Adding my thanks, Guillermo and Frank.
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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by MattiasNYC » Wed Dec 09, 2015 6:30 pm

It's really close to a non-statement. Nothing will change. You just watch.
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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by matjones » Wed Dec 09, 2015 7:16 pm

Lydiot wrote:It's really close to a non-statement. Nothing will change. You just watch.
You old cynic you! ;) ;)
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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by MattiasNYC » Wed Dec 09, 2015 7:32 pm

matjones wrote:
Lydiot wrote:It's really close to a non-statement. Nothing will change. You just watch.
You old cynic you! ;) ;)
I know, I'm annoying. But the thing is that this is part of the cycle. And this particular thing I just commented on isn't isolated to Steinberg. I think we see pretty frequently that users want communication, and they keep asking for it with company representatives not being seen anywhere. Then finally they appear, and they say - paraphrased - "Hey, we're here, we haven't forgotten about you, and we're listening". Every time that happens users go - paraphrased - "Oh, great man, thanks for talking to us" "Yeah, makes me feel so much better".

Now, what was the substance of the message? In and by itself possibly positive. Of course we want them to listen. But the proof is in the pudding. The only way we know if they're listening AND actually doing something we want to see happen is if, you know, it actually happens. That's the only way we know for sure (save for nuking the site from orbit). And that's where things typically fail.

Now we hear that Cubase is getting yet another update next week, for the lower version. So I ask you; when a SB rep told us in the Nuendo section that this nasty bug was a "priority" for them, do you really think that was the case? Of course users will say, "Oh, great; thanks for making it a priority!"..... was it?....

Yeah, I'm a grumpy old cynic. All I'm saying is look at history of software development, user feedback, and SB representative feedback. I don't think I'm wrong.

For any Steinberg employee reading this though I can assure you that you can ignore my presence because your users will continue to buy the next shiny thing and you can continue your modus operandi unimpeded.
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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by vespesian » Wed Dec 09, 2015 8:34 pm

Lydiot wrote:
Now we hear that Cubase is getting yet another update next week, for the lower version.......
Hmmm...and the previously announced update was to be 8.04 on Dec, 22 :| - which causes me to think they are quite overwhelmed, but is also a good example of how better communication could have gone a long way during this episode.

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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by matjones » Wed Dec 09, 2015 8:38 pm

You get me wrong my friend......just British sarcasm there.... I agree with you :D

But at the same time If they're genuinely overwhelmed at the moment let's give em a bit of time and see what happens over the next few weeks or so.... Christmas and new year aside of course.
And I think Vespesian makes a good pont too.
Last edited by matjones on Wed Dec 09, 2015 8:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by ckon » Wed Dec 09, 2015 8:40 pm

Lydiot wrote:
matjones wrote:
Lydiot wrote:It's really close to a non-statement. Nothing will change. You just watch.
You old cynic you! ;) ;)
I know, I'm annoying. But the thing is that this is part of the cycle. And this particular thing I just commented on isn't isolated to Steinberg. I think we see pretty frequently that users want communication, and they keep asking for it with company representatives not being seen anywhere. Then finally they appear, and they say - paraphrased - "Hey, we're here, we haven't forgotten about you, and we're listening". Every time that happens users go - paraphrased - "Oh, great man, thanks for talking to us" "Yeah, makes me feel so much better".

Now, what was the substance of the message? In and by itself possibly positive. Of course we want them to listen. But the proof is in the pudding. The only way we know if they're listening AND actually doing something we want to see happen is if, you know, it actually happens. That's the only way we know for sure (save for nuking the site from orbit). And that's where things typically fail.

Now we hear that Cubase is getting yet another update next week, for the lower version. So I ask you; when a SB rep told us in the Nuendo section that this nasty bug was a "priority" for them, do you really think that was the case? Of course users will say, "Oh, great; thanks for making it a priority!"..... was it?....

Yeah, I'm a grumpy old cynic. All I'm saying is look at history of software development, user feedback, and SB representative feedback. I don't think I'm wrong.

For any Steinberg employee reading this though I can assure you that you can ignore my presence because your users will continue to buy the next shiny thing and you can continue your modus operandi unimpeded.
That was actually pretty well put sir;-) a good read, and I agree.

(but again, thanks for the 'limited' response so far from Steinberg)
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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by MattiasNYC » Wed Dec 09, 2015 8:54 pm

matjones wrote:You get me wrong my friend......just British sarcasm there.... I agree with you :D
I suspected that. My post was more general in nature rather than addressed specifically to you as if we disagreed... even though I quoted you...
matjones wrote:But at the same time If they're genuinely overwhelmed at the moment let's give em a bit of time and see what happens over the next few weeks or so.... Christmas and new year aside of course.
And I think Vespesian makes a good pont too.
Hmmm.....
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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by AlakaLazlo » Wed Dec 09, 2015 8:58 pm

Lydiot wrote:It's really close to a non-statement. Nothing will change. You just watch.
Yup!

While I appreciate the response from a “marketing director” indicating they listen to their users, I don’t think that adequately addresses the real issue that this thread appears to advance.

Initially, are we supposed to be “grateful” that Steinberg listens to its customers? If they want to stay in business, don’t they have to? I mean, seriously, they release buggy (broken?) “Pro” software and their users complain (instead of boycotting like some of us have finally begun to do). If they ignore the negative response, this propagates everywhere - GS, social media, individual artists’ websites and blogs, etc. - and Steinberg is dead in 1-2 years tops. So a “we hear you” posting from a marketing director - while calculated to be a feel good response - isn’t nearly as encouraging as would be a promise to actually fix the problem; that being their repeatedly releasing buggy software.

Incidentally, I’m inclined to address the pro versus hobbyist component to this thread. I used to be a pro - now I’m a hobbyist - because I went down a different career path. There is no question that people who use software to make a living deserve a working product, especially from a company that markets its product as “Pro.” But so do hobbyists. When I have time (which I must say is unfortunately rare these days) to devote to something I love doing - making music - I deserve the same level of honesty and technical functionality from the company that sells me my software as a pro. People that buy products, software or otherwise, have a right to receive what they are sold. There’s a term for promising one thing and delivering another - false advertising. It doesn’t matter whether the purchaser of a product is a pro user or a hobbyist - the product should work as promised.

Next, even though I have not purchased the .5 release (and won’t until Steinberg explains why we still don’t have working W10 drivers for the MR816s) They want us to be grateful to hear there will be another update next week. Everyone is glad when serious bugs get fixed promptly. But again, isn’t that missing the point? If Steinberg did proper QC on its products, why would this even be necessary. The answer is hidden in plain view. They use their customers as unpaid beta-testers. More troubling - as has been pointed out in this and many other threads - is why aren’t bugs that are more than a year old fixed yet?

Which brings me back to what I believe is the main point of this whole thread. Steinberg needs to stop adding shinny new stuff (that many of us couldn’t care less about) and just sell a product that works as advertised. Period! It seems quite obvious that releasing a paid upgrade at the end of the year - working or not - is Steinberg’s current business model. Steinberg gets to add some revenue to the books for year end close. They know that a significant number of their users will buy it, even if its full of bugs, and we (not me anymore!) keep proving them right. So they have no reason to change this business practice. It’s my opinion, for what its worth, that until enough of their users proclaim “I’m sick and tired, and I’m not going to take it anymore!” - and back it up with a boycott - or until they get hit with a class action lawsuit for false advertising, nothing is going to change.
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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by vespesian » Wed Dec 09, 2015 9:06 pm

AlakaLazlo wrote:
Lydiot wrote:It's really close to a non-statement. Nothing will change. You just watch.
Yup!

While I appreciate the response from a “marketing director” indicating they listen to their users, I don’t think that adequately addresses the real issue that this thread appears to advance.

Initially, are we supposed to be “grateful” that Steinberg listens to its customers? If they want to stay in business, don’t they have to? I mean, seriously, they release buggy (broken?) “Pro” software and their users complain (instead of boycotting like some of us have finally begun to do). If they ignore the negative response, this propagates everywhere - GS, social media, individual artists’ websites and blogs, etc. - and Steinberg is dead in 1-2 years tops. So a “we hear you” posting from a marketing director - while calculated to be a feel good response - isn’t nearly as encouraging as would be a promise to actually fix the problem; that being their repeatedly releasing buggy software.

Incidentally, I’m inclined to address the pro versus hobbyist component to this thread. I used to be a pro - now I’m a hobbyist - because I went down a different career path. There is no question that people who use software to make a living deserve a working product, especially from a company that markets its product as “Pro.” But so do hobbyists. When I have time (which I must say is unfortunately rare these days) to devote to something I love doing - making music - I deserve the same level of honesty and technical functionality from the company that sells me my software as a pro. People that buy products, software or otherwise, have a right to receive what they are sold. There’s a term for promising one thing and delivering another - false advertising. It doesn’t matter whether the purchaser of a product is a pro user or a hobbyist - the product should work as promised.

Next, even though I have not purchased the .5 release (and won’t until Steinberg explains why we still don’t have working W10 drivers for the MR816s) They want us to be grateful to hear there will be another update next week. Everyone is glad when serious bugs get fixed promptly. But again, isn’t that missing the point? If Steinberg did proper QC on its products, why would this even be necessary. The answer is hidden in plain view. They use their customers as unpaid beta-testers. More troubling - as has been pointed out in this and many other threads - is why aren’t bugs that are more than a year old fixed yet?

Which brings me back to what I believe is the main point of this whole thread. Steinberg needs to stop adding shinny new stuff (that many of us couldn’t care less about) and just sell a product that works as advertised. Period! It seems quite obvious that releasing a paid upgrade at the end of the year - working or not - is Steinberg’s current business model. Steinberg gets to add some revenue to the books for year end close. They know that a significant number of their users will buy it, even if its full of bugs, and we (not me anymore!) keep proving them right. So they have no reason to change this business practice. It’s my opinion, for what its worth, that until enough of their users proclaim “I’m sick and tired, and I’m not going to take it anymore!” - and back it up with a boycott - or until they get hit with a class action lawsuit for false advertising, nothing is going to change.
And to that end, they're probably would not have been an "official statement", indirectly communicated, had this thread not existed in the first place (!). I think everyone can agree that, for whatever reason or combination of reasons, this has left kind of a bad taste in everyone's mouth.

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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by jose7822 » Wed Dec 09, 2015 9:13 pm

+1

I was a bit disappointed about the lack of response from Steinberg as I was reading this thread. But now I see that they have replied. However, they need to follow up with a more detailed explanation or else that reply will be meaningless. As much as I appreciate the new features in Cubase 8.5, especially those focused on workflow, I do hope that Steinberg actually does something about the bugs. They should be priority #1 over ANYTHING else.

BTW, from this date forward, I will refrain from upgrading any longer until most issues are resolved. I'm voting with my wallet from now on.
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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by greggybud » Wed Dec 09, 2015 9:22 pm

sonicstate wrote:
karlito wrote: And Cubase is really buggy, I don't think there is any "Pro" software out there that is buggy to such degree, and with old unresolved bugs since years ago. For most companies it is simply unimaginable to release such product and charge actual money for it.
While I agree with you, I think it's important to keep perspective. Cubase is also the most "feature-rich" DAW. My conclusion would be it also has the most bugs because of it's large feature set and overall flexibility. That can be good or bad depending on your use.

There are so many issues and inconsistencies and IMO it's due to so much emphasis on new features.

It's like a small home where over time the home owner has added rooms, torn out walls, and changed the roof. It's a nice big home and overall functional, but you can detect the additions. Some doors are not straight. The carpet is different in each room. The paint doesn't always match. The steep stairs aren't quite up to code. One of the toilet leaks a bit. The basement smells musty . But unfortunately the poor homeowner can't keep up with all these fixes because the wife is demanding a new pasta maker, Presto salad shooter, and custom espresso machine. So the homeowner pleases his wife at Christmas of course...but within a few weeks the salad shooter doesn't work as advertised, you discover she didn't even really want a pasta maker, and now the hot wife next door just got a newer espresso machine that makes twice as good espresso.
Windows 10 64bit, Wavelab 9.5, latest Cubase version, 64 gig all SSD,s (Gigabyte GeForce GTX 1050ti driving 2 32" LG ultra wides and 1 28" all @2560x1080) iCon QconPro, Metagrid, 4 MidiTimePiece's = 32in/outs,, UAD-2, NI, Waves, Arturia, and lots of hardware synthesizers most of them controlled by MidiQuest 11.

ckon
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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by ckon » Wed Dec 09, 2015 9:50 pm

but within a few weeks the salad shooter doesn't work as advertised, you discover she didn't even really want a pasta maker, and now the hot wife next door just got a newer espresso machine that makes twice as good espresso.
:-)
ckon:

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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by JordProd1 » Wed Dec 09, 2015 10:27 pm

+1

defenetly need more stability.i'd rather have a lot of major bug fixed than see new feature set for cubase 9

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Winter Rat
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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by Winter Rat » Wed Dec 09, 2015 10:29 pm

greggybud wrote:
While I agree with you, I think it's important to keep perspective. Cubase is also the most "feature-rich" DAW. My conclusion would be it also has the most bugs because of it's large feature set and overall flexibility. That can be good or bad depending on your us.
Well put. I would just add my 2 cents. We're trapped guys - Cubase is the most sophisticated DAW on the market and for this amount of money you can get nothing better. To be fair 8.5 works fine for me probably because I have a very simple setup, of course there are very annoying old bugs here and there but they don't stop me. And in fact we have no choice because all the rest DAWs are nothing better.

It was pretty funny to hear from the Marketing Director that he is "struggling with the current workload, preparing next week's Cubase 8.0.35 release". I can imagine an engineer or a programmer who struggling with the current workload because they're involved into the bug fixing process, but Marketing Director?! :o . Or Steinberg is that much small company and that bearded man is all-in-one?
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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by Anthony mr » Wed Dec 09, 2015 10:51 pm

+1

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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by Drech » Thu Dec 10, 2015 12:10 am

jose7822 wrote:+1

BTW, from this date forward, I will refrain from upgrading any longer until most issues are resolved. I'm voting with my wallet from now on.
+1

I've been a Cubase user for a long, long time but usually only lurk on the forums until now.

The update/upgrade model employed here coupled with consistently buggy releases and a failure to implement follow-up fixes has finally made it more painful to keep updating than it is to stay with 7.5 or move to another DAW.

No more Steinberg updates/upgrades/products for me until significant bug fixing takes place. And I mean truly substantive good will and commitment demonstrated by resolving years-old bugs that still persist, and the de-implementation of "features" that break native OS functionality, among other things (tabs that prevent window resizing; seriously, who tested that and though it was acceptable for users to be unable to resize application windows because the hover tabs at the edges prevent it? Absolutely asinine).

Since I've already paid several times over for but have yet to receive the full functionality of the software, having the gall to charge me yet again for these fixes is the surest way to lose me as a customer.

As for not having anything better, it's now less painful to deal with the inadequacies of other DAWs if they stay running while I work, don't use massive amounts of unnecessary RAM, have lag-free and pleasant GUIs, and won't stutter through playback on more than sufficient gear. Three of those are core functionality for any application and one is core functionality for any audio application, and for a seemingly significant number of users, Cubase now fails to meet all four.

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Re: An open plea to Steinberg

Post by silhouette » Thu Dec 10, 2015 12:14 am

How many users are taking part on this thread? It hardly constitutes a sizeable percentage of Cubase users. I guessing that most users don't even visit this site. We probably represent a very, very small pressure group. If this thread becomes too unpleasant towards SB it will be locked and where will that get us?

I think that we need to be measured and patient in the criticism that we make of the present version. We all agree that 8.5 is not ideal and what we need is to be able to persuade SB to start looking at the more historical issues/bugs. Perhaps a list of 5-10 that could be worked through with each update resolving some of them?
Intel core i7 5960X CPU 3.0 GHz 64bit 32 gig RAM - Windows 10 - AMD RadeonHD 7700 - RME Fireface UC - Cubase 8.5.20/9.0.1 - UAD Solo + Duo + Quad - Nektar Panorama P1 - Komplete 12 - All uhe - Adam AX7 + Adam Sub 8 - BFD3 - Alchemy - PSP - FabFilter - Fender Telecaster- Wudtone Strat - Gibson L4, 335,330L,175 -Ibanez PM100 - Musicman Silhouette x 3 - Warwick Thumb Bass - Kemper Profiling Amp -https://soundcloud.com/silhouette-17

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