How do I remove a page in the middle of a score?

“Complete pieces of music” is only one use case for flows. For example in Dorico, this page would have two flows on it, one of them displayed twice in separate frames. http://www.henle.de/blog/en/files/2013/01/Beethoven_Sonata_21_Opus_53_Seite_1.jpg

Dorico has got it right IMO. integrating “heading” text as part of the flow is the wrong logical place for it. If you wanted to integrate it anywhere, the layout would be a better idea (but still a bad idea).

You might need to display the text anywhere in the score in any format you want, perhaps multiple times (e.g. in a table of contents, an index of themes, etc), or maybe not display it at all.

There is a balance between ‘doing things properly’ and maintaining flexibility. When it comes to layout, Dorico’s superior flexibility makes certain things complicated, but what else would you expect from a pro application? For ‘simple’ use, I do believe a lot of the default settings gives most people an acceptable result without any tweaking. For ‘advanced’ use, the possibilities are endless as long as you learn the more complicated stuff.

In Adobe the master page moves with the page itself, and I would have expected that to be true of Dorico too—but apparently not?

As Daniel explained here, “The reason you don’t see these anomalies in Adobe InDesign is because InDesign never automatically crates pages in order to make sure that all of the content that might be lurking in any of the chains of text frames in your document actually appears, whereas Dorico has to do this automatically”

Also, I never understood why flow titles, subtitles, dedication, lyricist, composer, arranger, and orchestrator text could not simply be integrated as part of a flow—not as first-measure items like > Sibullyus> , but simply anchored to the beginning of the flow under the hood so it prints above the first line (with proper controls for spacing, &c) on its own, without the need of text frames. This would allow the flows to, well, flow! within a single music frame on a page, making it simpler to achieve a great printable outcome without page overrides and template changes and what not.

I think this simplification would diminish the flexibility of layout in Dorico. Flows ≠ movements - they can be used in many creative ways where you never would want a title. If you haven’t seen it yet, have a look at this tutorial, which demonstrates some of the layout possibilities using flows. Text frames are an important part of this flexibility. I think that having some text within the text frames, and some floating around without would give far less control over the result (I’m not talking about music text such as tempo, playing techniques and etc, which has to be linked directly to the music).

I have some ideas/questions regarding this topic:

  1. Would it be possible to make ‘Allow on existing page’/‘Always start new page’ a per-flow specific option? I think this would enhance the ‘automatic flexibility’. I imagine it accessible through right-clicking the flow in setup mode. This would of course have to be subordinate the layout setting.

  2. Is there a reason why ‘Swap with next page’ doesn’t apply to master page changes? I have found that selecting multiple pages and using this feature works great for tidying up page overrides when the music length changes, so I think this would be a very handy feature for master page changes as well.

I agree with what you are saying, but I am looking for possible ways to make something that is complicated today be less complicated in the future. I love Dorico’s flexibility, and being a long-time InDesign user, I felt at home right away with the Engrave tab, and the only real complaint I have about it is that it’s not enough like InDesign! :slight_smile: (I miss the mm sizing boxes, the smart guides, ability to copy+paste frames, &c.)

As Daniel explained > here> , “The reason you don’t see these anomalies in Adobe InDesign is because InDesign never automatically crates pages in order to make sure that all of the content that might be lurking in any of the chains of text frames in your document actually appears, whereas Dorico has to do this automatically”

I get it, but there has to be some smart way to handle this…

I think this simplification would diminish the flexibility of layout in Dorico. Flows ≠ movements - they can be used in many creative ways where you never would want a title. If you haven’t seen it yet, have a look at > this > tutorial, which demonstrates some of the layout possibilities using flows. Text frames are an important part of this flexibility. I think that having some text within the text frames, and some floating around without would give far less control over the result (I’m not talking about music text such as tempo, playing techniques and etc, which has to be linked directly to the music).

Correct, and I’m not advocating the removal of text frames—I think they are absolutely needed. But you could also have flow-attached text, and when you wanted to do something like the choral preces (which I had seen when Daniel first blogged about it) you would simply leave the title, composer, and other text blank (or “unattached” to that specific flow).

These are just ideas, of course… What matters most here is the dialogue and exchange of ideas! :wink:

As for your list:

  1. Agree with this, great idea!
  2. Perhaps a better implementation of this could solve the issue that originated this thread?

'Fraid I’ve just spotted another downside to adding/removing pages from the middle of layouts:
Any following pages with overrides are effectively locked, so an overridden page based on a “left” master page will keep its page number in the left corner even if the page number changes from 50 to 49 (for example).

Again, I can’t off the top of my head think of any situations in which a user would want Dorico to behave like this, but it’s the way it’s designed.

This shouldn’t happen if you’ve set up your master pages properly: each master page is a pair of pages, left and right, and when you end up with a particular master page on the left or right side of a spread, then the appropriate master page will be chosen. You shouldn’t ever really have a master page that you think of as just a “left” master page, therefore, as either the left or right page will be used according to where in the layout that master page happens to fall.

I noticed that, when I created a custom master page (to put page numbers on a First page) and asked Dorico to copy a LH master page to a RH master page, the second page was a copy rather than a mirror copy. (In both cases the page field I had added was on the left). In addition, the page text field was a linked duplicate: the text in both was justified left, and changing one field caused the justification to change in the other.

Perhaps @pianoleo’s situation is related to this.

Again, it comes down to context:

  1. Have a layout where flows can start on existing pages.
  2. Invoke a master page change (because you want titles or something at the start of a flow midway through the layout).
  3. Override something on the frames on that page (e.g. because you want another title midway down the page).
  4. Fiddle with pagination on previous pages (e.g. by cutting 16 bars).
  5. Delete a now spare previous page (by moving to the end of layout and then removing page overrides from this page).

Step 3 - introducing an override - locks the frames on that page in their current state, and that includes the position of the (totally default) page number text frame at either the top left or top right corner.

It would be jolly lovely to not override Master Pages ever, but - and this is crucial - merely replacing {@flowtitle@} with {@flow2title} constitutes an override.

I cannot for love nor money find a way to have a new flow start halfway down a page with an existing flow WITHOUT either creating a brand new Master Page (specifically for that single page) OR introducing an override.

@Derrek, no, I’ve checked my Master Pages. I’ve become very adept at copying L->R, then immediately clicking the page number frame on the RH page, unlocking the R constraint, locking the L constraint, deselecting the frame, reselecting the frame, then setting the Left frames property (on the bottom pane) to 1pt. One also has to double-check the justification of the text within the frame.

Besides, it’s only overridden pages that display page numbers in the wrong places - all the other pages based on first/default etc. display just fine.

Leo, there is no way of having a flow start halfway down a page and show a title etc. that doesn’t involve either a dedicated master page of a page override. It’s inevitable.

But I assure you: if you insert or remove a page before a master page change, when the master page change moves such that it is now on the left-hand side of the spread rather than the right, or vice versa, then the other page from the master page pair will be used, and provided that pair is set up properly with the page numbers on the expected side for each page of the pair, the page number will appear on the correct side.

Oh, and an overridden page will of course not update when it moves left or right. It’s overridden, so it no longer gets updated like a non-overridden page does when the pagination changes.

Exactly! (Glad I’m not being dense here.)

Hi Folks,

This is my first post here and I am only just scratching the surface with Dorico so what you guys are performing here with the program is far beyond my experience. However, in terms of work flow:

Would it be achievable and worthwhile to create a master page at the end of your flow that remains blank and is in situ for the purpose of copying, sorting and editing excerpts outside of your set pages. Instead of creating a blank page in the middle and performing these edits there, do it at the end of the flow. Then when done, you remove those pages and your layouts aren’t effected.

Does this make sense?

Welcome to Dorico, Sadhaka!

That’s an interesting idea but I don’t think it really helps much, because you would have to change the order in which the music “flows” through the pages to jump out of sequence to the last page and then jump back again. You could do that, but it seems to me like you would just be swapping one problem for a different one.

This should become a lot simpler when you can start a new flow in the middle of a page and automatically insert the flow title etc without doing manual overrides - but that isn’t implemented yet.

Another aspect of all this is that people really seem to like tweaking the format of the project before all the music is entered and the page breaks are stable. There is a well known saying in computer programming that “premature optimisation is the root of all evil”. It also applies to document creation - though WYSIWYG products like Microsoft Word etc have led most people up that garden path! Dorico tries to separate “creating the content” (write mode) and “formatting the document” (engrave mode) but it can be hard to break the habits of a lifetime and start working a different way.

Actually, really large-scale document creation has always worked best the “Dorico way” - try creating say 10,000 cross-references and a similar sized index in a 1,000-page document using the menus and dialogs in Word, and you soon learn the limitations of WYSIWYG compared with a completely text-based input format! But most Word users probably consider a “large document” to be 10 pages, not 1,000.

Of course in music theatre people need to do frequent updates to the music - but even then, does saving half a page of paper in the printed parts really matter, compared with the amount of time and trouble it takes to save it - especially if that version will be thrown away and replaced by another one in a few days anyway?

Rob, the need from frequent updates is not limited to theatre music, it is my usual way to use scoring software. So I can’t agree with your statements. It is of course necessary to change any parts of the music at any time one wish to do so, without destroying already finished parts. Generally, this is one great advantage of software over to do it by hand. If this behaviour will not change in future I know my layout way: back to InDesign.

Isn’t that the problem: you are trying to use Dorico based on habit developed using other programs?

No Derrek, it is the approach and the need which a musician have. Software should serve people, not the opposite way. A little story: one day I visited a shoe store to buy new shoes. As I am having rather wide feet, this is generally a little problem. So the - nice - sales girl shows me a couple of shoes - but no one fits to my feet. At the end she said: “Sorry, but your feet are too wide.” I answerded: “No, the shoes are too narrow.”

Rob,
I totally see your point, and I try to wait with any overrides until the music is done (although my habits tells me otherwise). But as I do a lot of music theatre, this has become quite problematic when it comes to page turns, as these needs to be addressed in every print. I hope for some better way to insert blank pages in the future, but I don’t mind waiting, as Dorico already is a huge timesaver for me :smiley:

No, I think the problem is that you are wasting time by doing things in the wrong order. I can’t see any need to “finish” one section of a part before you change something else.

If you insist on working a different way, then it might be better to use different software - though I can’t see now InDesign will save you any time here, but that’s your decision not mine!

I have spent a lot of time creating and editing very large documents - more like 10,000 pages (in several volumes) than 1,000. Doing a lot of detailed formatting before all the input is complete (or almost complete) is simply a waste of effort, because you have to do it again, and again, and again…

Of course you might want to “finish” formatting a short section of the complete document to find any problems with the document design, etc - but that isn’t the same as continually tweaking the format every time need to change the content.

I’m not saying anything “new” here. I could quote from a book on document design written in the 1980’s which makes the point that “What you see is what you get” is a bad name - it should be “What you see is ALL you get,” and if you change some formatting on page 1, you risk losing all the work you have done on pages 2 to the end!

I can see both sides… although, I somewhat lean more with Rob on this one.

If you are tweaking documents long before they are done, then one must expect to re-edit the layout that occurred.

However, I do see that maybe some functionality needs to exist. If I am a teacher creating a worksheet/test/etc., and next year I realize that we didn’t cover a particular topic or I need to add some questions, it would be beneficial to have some kind of “lock current page and contents” function, where I can then delete unwanted stuff or add stuff, without interfering with the stuff that already took time to edit. (A function somewhat similar to insert mode)

Also, maybe a page turn algorithm is an answer as well? That way people making daily/weekly changes don’t have to worry so much about pages working and parts working correctly.

All this to say though, if you make changes, one should expect some level of editing on the back on end.

Robby

Thanks for the welcome to Dorico @ Rob Tuley :slight_smile:

I agree with much of what you have said and I think that a lot of the issue here comes down to workflow:

I have just started doing a workbook based on the ‘Creating a Worksheet’ pdf provided by the Dorico team. Much of the work of layout and entering text seems to take place in Engrave mode. Traditionally, Engraving was the final step before print and once put down on the plate, any major changes would require the scrapping of the old plate and the starting afresh.

In the OP from @pianoleo, it appears that he had to shuffle the order of a few Flows and text boxes, and in order to do so he made a new page, did the shuffle and then couldn’t delete the now blank page without the layouts and overrides.

My idea was that (as long as the existing page would retain the same content) you could do these shuffles on a different page at the end or in a different document and the copy them back to the original page. In this way, the other pages wouldn’t be interfered with. I did this in Sibelius all the time in the Good ol’ Days.

Making my workbook in Dorico is like “Wow, this is so awesome!”

If in the real world you had 60 physical pages laid out in order and you realised that one needed amendments, you could lift that page out and replace it with a new alternative. No other page would be altered. I think that pianoleo was trying to see if this could be achieved in the software domain. Naturally, one should have their edition completely flawless before sending it to the Engraver… How many editions do we all own where there are obvious engraving errors lol!

Robby Poole touches on this above and this is a very valid point that I will no doubt experience. As I am on a very steep learning curve developing my workflow, my terminology may be a bit off. An unlock all formatting/overrides function is essential for keeping revisions and updates a realistic outcome for our work.