Expression Maps

Discussions about our next-generation scoring application, Dorico.
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Andre
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Re: Expression Maps

Post by Andre » Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:01 am

Yes, I noticed that they for example use articulation names that aren't part of the original choice within Dorico but specific for the library although the midi key numbers are correct. Isn't that the most important part to trigger an articulation? Still, I do have all the correct midi key numbers for every articulation now so it should be easy to make new maps from scratch. Or will there still be a reason that it doesn't work?
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Re: Expression Maps

Post by David Tee » Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:14 am

Unfortunately yes. There are two issues. Dorico articulations that can be mapped but don't play back or trigger (Trills , Vibrato etc.) and Sound Library articulations that can't be mapped because there isn't a corresponding articulation within Dorico. In other words, there are issues on both sides of the map.

I've spent the last couple of days looking at this issue of Dorico Expression maps in some depth using a number of libraries. All of them can be made to map to some extent, but none of them perfectly (i.e. fully). But, for the moment, that may be enough for many users. As I said in an earlier post, if the goal is to start mapping now to satisfy those users then we really need a list of current articulations that trigger AND play back. That's an essential starting point - without it you're either guessing or it's a slow process of trial and error.

By the way, I think the Babylon Waves package is a very useful tool. User Mapping is time-consuming - mapping to a consistent layout and standard requires a great deal of thought and planning. I know from experience of mapping in Cubase that I would constantly be revising maps to try and achieve a consistent standard. I'd happily buy in a Babylonwaves for Dorico package when Dorico is fully setup for Expression Maps.

A request for the development team: Can we enable user folders in the Expression maps list? The way that it's set up at the moment if we were to map all libraries, there could a long, long list of items there. It would be good to open folders by library, or by instrument.
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Re: Expression Maps

Post by Andre » Thu Apr 26, 2018 5:00 pm

I spent this afternoon trying to get the Kirk Hunter's CS2 working and got very good results. These are the technique text in the Expression Maps that are working and not working. The information between brackets are the names and key switches for the KH string library:

Kirk hunter Concert Strings 2:
Every EM must contain a Natural technique for default playback (no Actions needed)

Working:
Natural (CS2 - smooth, 25)
Legato symbol (CS2 - smooth, 25)
Staccato symbol (CS2 - short 30)
Accent symbol (CS2 - accentmf 27)
Pizzicato text (CS2 - pizzicato, 34/35)
Tremolo symbol (2 and 3 slashed) (CS2 - tremolo, 31 )
Sf text (CS2 - accentmf 27)
Muted symbol (CS2 - mutes, 127)

Not Working:
Sfp:
FFp:
Fp
Trill: (CS2 - trill, 32/33)
Harmonic: Natural harmonic 1 (CS2 - harm, 36)
Bartoksnapp pizz: (CS2 - B'tok Pizz, 35)

I was surprised to see that the mute command works, although i don't see a way to turn it off again.

Now a new challenge: how can I control what is triggered when articulations are combined in the score? For example an accented staccato note seems to cancel out both articulations with the results that none of them are being played and it defaults to Natural. The same with tremolo and accent. This combination defaults back to an accent key switch trigger.
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Re: Expression Maps

Post by pnicholls » Fri Apr 27, 2018 6:14 am

Hi John and others on this thread,

I am looking for a Dorico Expression Map for one or other of the solo strings libraries that are available for a demo I want to do of a long, complex, and technically challenging string quartet I have just written. I have been researching the virtues and limitations of what is there and feel that the Chris Hein, Embertone, and possibly the Cinestrings have both the full range of the instruments and the proper range of useful articulations and sounds. I was rather sad to discover that the Sacconi Strings library from Spitfire does not have professional player ranges for the instruments as that body of work seems particularly lovely. (Spitfire says that they did not have time to make the full recordings and that feels to me like a great opportunity missed.)

What I would like to know is if anyone has a Dorico Expression Map for the Chris Hein Solo strings or the Embertone solo instruments or another library of this sort? I think that it is likely that another Chris Hein orchestral string library Expression Map could be adapted for the Solo Strings.

If no one has a map of this sort, I would be interested in your opinion if it is worth making the purchase one of these libraries and risking whether a successful Expression Map could be made right now (as one would expect it could). Reading this thread system does not seem like its working 100% yet although that may be due to the difficulty or complexity of programming an EM. Some assistance from Steinberg would be welcome if that is possible. It seems there should be a big push in this area given the nature of the 2.0 update that seems to be coming soon.

I also think we need to have a page set up at Sternberg just for Dorico Expression Maps similar to the page for Cubase Maps. I feel that would show some commitment to this aspect of Dorico (if you have it up already that's great!). In fact, I think this is one of the key areas of the program and Sibelius did not follow through enough with their version of the expression map. Also the mixer has potential but it would be great if some effective MIDI automation could be added at some point. Your ability to adjust note lengths without changing the notion was a very important step.

I am very grateful that it is likely that Noteperformer will be coming to Dorico. However, Noteperformer is wonderful for writing with and is surprisingly musical at times, especially on certain instruments. Unfortunately, for strings (although very good) it does not match the sound quality of the libraries that have been designed for film composers, some of whom would love to be using Dorico for all its current amazing features.

Cheers, Paul N

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Re: Expression Maps

Post by Andre » Fri Apr 27, 2018 11:35 am

Another problem I noticed is that already after using only 5 string sections in an orchestral score, Dorico can’t keep up anymore, and starts skipping notes. I can play this score without any problem with the full library loaded in Sibelius. Does this mean that Dorico uses much more processor power for the same task than Sibelius? That would be a problem and if so, there isn’t any point to try getting the libraries mapped. That would be a waste of time.
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Re: Expression Maps

Post by aleos » Tue May 01, 2018 2:54 pm

I dont have anything meaningful to add to this topic, as I never got it going with Sibelius. But I am keenly interested in this subject, as an owner of many Spirtfire products. Expression mapping for their chamber strings, woodwinds, and brass would be like the greatest christmas ever. Looking forward to seeing how this develops.
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Re: Expression Maps

Post by JonathanK » Wed May 30, 2018 12:58 pm

FYI, the Vienna Symphonic Library (VSL) Special Edition Expression Maps v.1.31 work, at least in the small amount that I have used them so far. This is mostly basic string articulations and some woodwinds. These are from the VSL site (...MyVSL/Notation related) and not the Steinberg page which lists an earlier version number.

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Re: Expression Maps

Post by David Tee » Wed May 30, 2018 2:52 pm

I've been looking at the impact of Dorico Pro 2 on Expression Maps. We now have the ability to create our own Playing Techniques - which feed into Expression Maps. Unless I'm missing something, I don't see anything preventing users from setting up expression maps that can cover all articulations from any library. I've just tried it out on a Flute sample from EWQLSO and managed to get trills playing back. The score will look a bit weird with user techniques but these can be hidden (opacity zero) and still play back.
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Re: Expression Maps

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Wed May 30, 2018 2:54 pm

Playing techniques can now be hidden by way of a dedicated property in the Properties panel, rather than requiring them to have their colour changed.

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Re: Expression Maps

Post by David Tee » Wed May 30, 2018 2:56 pm

Well, even better.
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Re: Expression Maps

Post by nunocasteleira » Wed May 30, 2018 5:24 pm

I have the Soniccouture Grand Marimba, which have a Tremolo effect triggered by CC64 (supposedly the sustain pedal).

When you want tremolos, you trigger it with CC64; when you don't wat them, you retriever CC64.

With the Dorico 2 functionality of creating custom Playing Techniques, I promptly created a tremolo playing technique.

I know how to configure the tremolo to start, but how can I configure the Expression maps to return back to normal?

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Re: Expression Maps

Post by MichaelSel » Wed May 30, 2018 8:40 pm

For some reasons, while I can tweak every parameter with no difficulty (so far), the "length %" parameter just snaps back to 100% no matter what I input or what I do. Am I missing anything or is this a bug?

Thanks!!
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Re: Expression Maps

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Thu May 31, 2018 12:22 am

You're not missing anything, Michael: this aspect of expression maps is not yet implemented. The data is imported from the Cubase format map, but then not actually used by Dorico as yet.

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Re: Expression Maps

Post by ShikiSuen » Thu May 31, 2018 1:26 pm

cemmevo wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:23 pm
Apologies, I see now that I had not tested the actual output response for the trill technique.

I did make another very basic xmap, for NI Symphony Series String Ensemble and attached it.

In addition to the more common articulations and Dorico associations, there is a "Harmonics" patch and a "Sordino Sus. Vibrato. Using what technique nomenclature is available for now, I equated the "Harmonics" with the Dorico "Half-harmonic", and the "Sordino Sus. Vibrato" with Dorico "Muted".

Note that I did not equate a technique for the "Octave Runs up" articulation. Same case for the Cinematic Strings 2, there is a "Run mode" articulation that I did not use in my initial version of the xmap.
I guess John Barron is doing this xmap on his own. Prior to your contribution I sent him the documentation of the entire NISS orchestra products (incl. all default keyswitch information) and maybe he is working on the playback template for it.
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Re: Expression Maps

Post by ShikiSuen » Thu May 31, 2018 1:27 pm

Daniel at Steinberg wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 12:22 am
You're not missing anything, Michael: this aspect of expression maps is not yet implemented. The data is imported from the Cubase format map, but then not actually used by Dorico as yet.
This may explain why certain expression maps (made-for-Cubase prior to the foundation of Steinberg London) downloaded from Steinberg website doesn't work well in Dorico.
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Re: Expression Maps

Post by Grainger2001 » Thu May 31, 2018 9:14 pm

The new version 2 of Dorico is awesome but I am having problems with creating my own Playing Techniques and having them play back properly...This is a crucial element for me to get going before completely switching from Sibelius...It is essential to be be able to select articulations at will and create my own expression maps that work effectively.

Here is an example of the problem: I create two new playing techniques in Engrave: Playing Techniques - one is called zapp, one is called zonk. I also create two respective entries in the edit playing technique area - Therefore the text is zapp, the popover text is zapp, the playing technique is zapp and likewise for zonk.

Now I go to PLAY: Expression maps and add these into one of the existing expression maps. As this is a test I will use the HSO Violins Combi. I create a new technique and add zapp, I then assign a keyswitch to it and likewise for zonk. Now, when I go into my score (violins using this expression map) and insert a new playing technique above a note the results are erratic. I have a bar of four quarter notes and I assign the playing technique zapp above the first one...and it works. When I go to play mode, I can see zapp in the new playing techniques lane and it is playing the assigned keyswitch.

Now, two quarter notes later I want to change the articulation so I assign zonk....Not only does the sound not change, but the Playing techniques lane in PLAY has not updated to the new playing technique..Indeed it enters zapp again. According to the HELP, you may need to insert a NAT or natural command to reset the expression map, (and this does work) but if you are changing articulations/playing techniques on two adjacent notes, where do you put the NAT?...and surely there must be a way to switch from one custom playing technique to the next without always having to insert this command? If I use the regular playing techniques already inside Dorico, it switches perfectly and the Playing Techniques lane updates correctly. I can't see what is different about using my custom playing techniques which is stopping it working in the same way? Maybe I am missing something obvious?

All in all, once I can get this element straight I can create custom expression maps for all my VSL custom matrices and I will be a a very happy camper...
Dorico is definitely going to be the new standard, and combining sequencer type elements along with fantastic engraving and play back tools makes this software outstanding in my opinion.

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Re: Expression Maps

Post by cyril » Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:25 am

Hello Daniel

Yesterday VSL said again :
[
i]We are watching the development of Dorico and probably will offer Dorico Expression Maps for our libraries in the future. At the moment there are still some requirements that would need to be fulfilled by the Dorico team. I have sent them a list some months ago.[/i]

Is Dorico 2 solving VSL's requests ?

Thanks

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Re: Expression Maps

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Fri Jun 01, 2018 10:45 am

The sorts of things that Andreas at VSL and I have talked about are the same sorts of things that are necessary for the production of expression maps for any library: proper handling of mutual exclusion between different techniques or groups of techniques; support for the missing pieces of the Cubase expression map format (e.g. local note length control, etc.); the ability to change MIDI channel in an expression map; and so on. None of these areas received any attention in Dorico 2 because of work on other aspects of playback, such as playback templates, NotePerformer, MIDI controller automation, repeats playback, and so on. But we do of course plan to work on all of these areas as soon as is practical.

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Re: Expression Maps

Post by David Tee » Fri Jun 01, 2018 11:38 am

A question on the Playback Templates if that's OK, Daniel.

Referring to the new Version History - will users be able to create their own Playback Templates without the need to use the data files?
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Re: Expression Maps

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Fri Jun 01, 2018 11:45 am

There's no way within Dorico to create a playback template at present. In the future, this is something we will certainly think about.

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Re: Expression Maps

Post by djw » Fri Jun 01, 2018 7:17 pm

Daniel at Steinberg wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 10:45 am
None of these areas received any attention in Dorico 2 because of work on other aspects of playback, such as playback templates, NotePerformer
As you probably know there's a list of compatibility issues with Dorico on the NotePerformer site (here). Is it realistic to expect these to be ironed out in the 2.x updates, or ever?

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Re: Expression Maps

Post by canlit101 » Sat Jun 02, 2018 9:37 pm

Hi Everyone! This is my first post, so I hope this is the right place. I am trying to develop an expression map for EWQL Solo Violin. However, when I enter the articulations in Write Mode, the wrong technique shows up in Play Mode. For instance if I add non vib. in Write, it show up as Spiccato in Play even though I entered the correct midi note when I created the non vib. technique in the expression map I created. When I look at the Play VST instrument only half of the key switches are being used. There seems to be a random disconnect between the articulations I choose in making the expression map and what happens when I choose techniques in Write mode. I watched the video on expression maps several times and the result is not predictable.

I am looking forward to figuring this out, and I will be happy to create some maps once the result is more certain

Thanks!

b

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Re: Expression Maps

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Sun Jun 03, 2018 12:08 am

djw wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 7:17 pm
As you probably know there's a list of compatibility issues with Dorico on the NotePerformer site (here). Is it realistic to expect these to be ironed out in the 2.x updates, or ever?
Well, several of those compatibility issues arise from differences in design approach – Arne has been very vocal to me about what he thinks is appropriate for a notation program to do with its playback, and what it is not. That amounts to a difference of opinion and I can't guarantee that we will simply acquiesce to whatever Arne says he thinks would be best for NotePerformer, though I would hope that the fact that we have already done a substantial amount of work to help him deliver a working version of NotePerformer for Dorico demonstrates that we see the real value in his work. But some of the issues, like the fact that some combinations of articulations and techniques don't work together, of course will be taken care of in the future because they have a general impact, not only on NotePerformer (though I can't say exactly when).

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Re: Expression Maps

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Sun Jun 03, 2018 12:09 am

canlit101 wrote:
Sat Jun 02, 2018 9:37 pm
Hi Everyone! This is my first post, so I hope this is the right place. I am trying to develop an expression map for EWQL Solo Violin. However, when I enter the articulations in Write Mode, the wrong technique shows up in Play Mode. For instance if I add non vib. in Write, it show up as Spiccato in Play even though I entered the correct midi note when I created the non vib. technique in the expression map I created.
My guess is that you may need to insert additional "nat." playing techniques in Dorico between each other change of technique, as Dorico currently lacks the smarts it needs to be able to work out that e.g. "open" and "mute" are opposites of each other, so if you write "mute" followed by "open" it will go off and try to find a sound "mute+open", which it presumably will not be able to find, and hence will do nothing. Using "nat." to put things back how they were between each change of technique generally works.

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Re: Expression Maps

Post by cyril » Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:16 am

Daniel at Steinberg wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 10:45 am
The sorts of things that Andreas at VSL and I have talked about are the same sorts of things that are necessary for the production of expression maps for any library: proper handling of mutual exclusion between different techniques or groups of techniques; support for the missing pieces of the Cubase expression map format (e.g. local note length control, etc.); the ability to change MIDI channel in an expression map; and so on. None of these areas received any attention in Dorico 2 because of work on other aspects of playback, such as playback templates, NotePerformer, MIDI controller automation, repeats playback, and so on. But we do of course plan to work on all of these areas as soon as is practical.
Hello Daniel

Thanks for your answer.

Would you say that Expression Maps in Dorico 2 is 100 % compatible with Cubase Expression Maps or there are still some expression that cannot be done in Dorico 2 ?

I do not see any interest of changing Midi Channel i an Expression Map !!!!!!

VSL spoke of "sfz" and "pp", what is the problem there ?

Thanks
MacPro 2010 12 core 2.93 ghz 32 GB Mac OS X 10.11 2722 Rocket Raid Sata III card with 8 x ssd
VSL lib on a Raid 0 of 4 x 256 GB ssd Sata III - Raid 0 of 4 x 64 GB for other libs
System on a 1 TB ssd
Audio Motu PCI system 84 ins / 64 outs
Kbd : P80 Yamaha, S88 Komplete Kontrol, DX7, S25
I-Controls Pro, 2xMidi expression pedals
Synth : many.... (Emu, Rolland, Yamaha, Korg ...)
---
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---
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Dorico
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VSL : MIR PRO, Appassionata Strings I, Solo strings , Wind and Brass Complete, Dimension Brass, Overdrive
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