Disturbing, eye-unfriendly light/dark contrasts in menus and icons

No you read me wrong Teh Asphyx,
I wanted to thank you both for putting things right into place.
You may have read the other thread GUI - Well done! - Nuendo - Steinberg Forums where the OP from this thread came as an arrogant and disrespectful person towards me because I was showing enthousiasm about the new GUI.
As you used the exact formula he used, I saw it as a give back. Which I really appreciated.
Same goes for Getalife with his analysis.

I found the move elegant and much more civil than the way the OP came across on both threads.
Well enough for me now.
Have a great weekend.

:smiley:

now, that’s the spirit !

Which is why most websites (including this one) are dark text on white? Most text writing programs such as microsoft word?

Wtf are you going off about mate?

What software are you experiencing? Video programs maybe, that’s because if one is working with video they don’t want distracting colours/light - they only want to be monitoring that within the video itself, not the video editor.

The only reason there was ever white text on black is because the early days of computer that was the most sensical low power way to display any graphic on screen. The modern reason today, would be in coding programs, but that’s because coders color-code the different types and sections of code to make it easier to identify different parts of what they are working on which otherwise just looks like a jumble of text, ie it’s hard to see yellow on white, bright green on white, etc, etc…

I have a relatively new screen, it’s a LG ultrawide, not quite 4k, but it’s in the 3k pixel range, everything looks clear and is easy to read until I start looking at Cubase dialogue boxes, preset lists, etc, etc. This is undeniable. Terrible GUI design.

There are already pages and pages of people on the Cubase forum discussing this.

no contest as to which is better.


edit

Not to mention, the darker a screen, the more it becomes reflective to external light… lights in your room, gear lights on your desk, sunlight, etc.

Teh Asphyx is absolutely right, and there is no doubt. Almost any coder in this world uses a dark background, which is the default for ANY serious text or code editor in this world. Have a look at the top 4 editors:

https://www.google.com/search?q=atom+code&rlz=1C1CHBF_deDE807DE807&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjR1eXMu_LhAhXFxqQKHVNBAr4Q_AUIDigB&biw=2560&bih=1367

So, are you actually saying that coders, the people that probably spent the most time with screen work, are all mistaking? This has nothing to do with ‘old times’, but avoiding too much brightness from the screen is simply the best way to avoid stress and eye injury with unhealthy jobs like screen work.

Websites and classic word processors (like -uhmmm- MS Word) cannot be taken as examples. Regarding word processors, it’s clear that they historically aim to give the user a preview of a print out. This is pretty okay. Regarding websites, I think (cannot give you a proof though) that we see a clear tendency of darkening backgrounds. At least for professional products. Look at Steinbergs website (sic!), or Native Instruments, Protools/AVID, Universal Audio, Adobe (partially). Do you notice something? They all are completely dark or have at least a increasingly dark tendency (menus, footers) if you compare them with their older counterparts.

I highly recommend you: Give it a try. After some time, you will never look back.

No he is fundamentally wrong. Did you not read my post? I addressed your question before you even asked it.

There is no clear tendency at all of darkening backgrounds. at all.

@WastingYourTime: Of course I read your post. Regarding editors for code, most (if not all) can be switched to a light mode, and the readability will not suffer. I just tried that with Visual Studio in some common languages (btw. in my earlier days as a programmer I actually used VS with white background!), and all contrast remains pretty fine. If not even BETTER.
One important point is that people with astigmatism (which are approx. 50% of all humans) can read black text on white far better and more sharp than inverted text. But that doesn’t mean that this is better for the eye or brain. For further information have a look at gui design - Which color scheme to choose for applications that require long work hours? - User Experience Stack Exchange.
Still, when working for more than 7-8 hours per day, especially in dimmed environments, the dark background is very welcome. Glasses should be used to overcome the issue with astigmatism.

The more I test C10 and N10, the more I want the old Nuendo 8.3 graphic back so hard. Steiny, is it possible to make it selectable between the 8.3 and the 10 graphic? Please, the new graphic is a pain in the eye. :frowning:

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Most of that article proposes dark text light background, including the article itself being that way.

In the case of the Kindle or whatever, most devices specific to reading have highly anti-reflective surfaces, are a device in which the person can move it to the optimum distance for them from their face, and the software in those devices has parameters for resizing text. Without a highly anti-reflective surface, you will get exterior light bouncing off a black screen more because of the nature of glass/transparent material.

You’ll notice in the white text on black picture example, that the text is spaced further apart. That text would not be readable if the minimum line spacing was used.

The size of text in Cubendo, and the proximity of spacing between words/lines in some windows, is not well suited for light text on dark background.

To make it clear …
I have nothing against dark backgrounds. We had it already in earlier versions of “Cubendo” and there it worked for me !!!
So there are other things to consider as root cause for my and some other peoples complaint.

I think I found out 2 interesting things by forum discussions and when looking at other software which also use a dark GUI like Vegas Pro 15.

  1. Vegas Pro 15 also uses a dark background. There are some text elements that are displayed in paper white and it’s not disturbing.
    Why ? They use a much smaller font and no “boldface” characters. By this the amount of white is reduced, this is more eye friendly.
    So my assumption is, that Cubase and Nuendo 10 use in some GUI elements simply a too high amount of “white” on “dark” (text, icons other elements).

  2. When discussing this issue in a forum somebody said … I have no issues on my 4k screen. I think this is also important.
    If you have a 4k screen, then everything is becoming more tiny on screen because of the higher resulution and PPI (pixel per inch) value.
    If everything becomes more tiny on a screen then of course the paperwhite areas (GUI elements) on dark also become more tiny
    and are most likely not so disturbing.

It would be very friendly if somebody at Steinberg could analyse the root cause for this.
Maybe also with a 23" or 24" monitor at the usual Full HD resolution (1920x1080) that many people still use.

Fingerpointing against each other is not a proper way to deal with this issue.
Also Steinberg would have more of an advantage, if every customer could be happy again.

I personally think that only a few little adjustments would be required to make me and some other customers happy again.
Up to now I am missing this willingness of Steinberg to investigate for the root cause.
It’s frustrating if you invest into a product since Cubase 1 (money and skill) and if then a company changes something in that way
and at the end is not even willed to help to find the root cause. Service desert Germany…

Muhahaha…thanks for that one mate, made my day.

And yeah, the new GUI is a botch job, precisely because of the contrast and other flawed design decisions. Perfectly pointless and nothing but a strain.

@WastingYourTime: You are right, the font weight and/or spacing seems to be less than ideal in some dialog windows. Bold characters are kind of blurring if you are looking at them for some moments (i.e.: reading them!). Maybe some kind of basic customizable theming would be quite handsome, if it doesn’t put too much programming load on SBs side.

Maybe since my screens are somewhere in between low and high resolution (they have 2560x1440px) I was too fast judging about other peoples problems. If so, sorry, and let’s see what will be improved. I think SB is listening, quietly though, as always :slight_smile:

May be this problem is somehow connected with the combination of certain display resolutions, grafic cards AND OS.
The people who are complaining about blurry fonts, disturbing light/dark contrasts (including me) are mainly on Win.
At the same time it is no accident that all promotional Cubendo videos are Screen Captures of Mac!!!
But as Fredo pointed out in a different post, in the next Nuendo Update we will see further options for display customization. So let’s hope, Steinberg privides a solution for both - blurry fonts and hight contrast elements, which are hard to look at.

Ok, then here some HW details:

OS: Windows 7 SP1
GPU: MSI GTX 980 Gaming 4G
Monitor: EIZO EV2333W, 23", 1920x1080 (calibrated)

Works all perfect with Cubase 9.5.41 (and Nuendo 8.3, but have no access to it anymore).

Hi Folks
I had the same problem as everyone else on this forum regarding glaringly bright contrast problems. This might sound kind of obvious but what I did to semi fix the problem was to go to edit and select Preferences and click on colour schemes under user Interface then click Defaults ( bottom left) then if you navigate to choose Colour Scheme click on the darkest square and things should look a lot better.
Hope this helps
David

Resuming this thread.

  • I’m right!
  • No I am right!
  • No, your an idiot. I’m right!
  • You are the idiot. I’m right!
  • There are studies that says I’m right!
  • No, these studies are wrong, my studies are right! So, I’m right!

Come on people! I really like the new GUI, but it doesn’t mean everybody should think the way I think. The problem is Steinberg is not giving users much options as it used to do in the past. Just that.

Nuendo support should have come with such a proposal.

The guy who supported me was shortly before vacation but said we can shift the 14d money back further while he is further investigating after his vacation. I wanted to have this in written form that I can give product back even later than 14d after online ordering.
Steinberg came back later by e-mail telling me that they can’t confirm this to me in written form :frowning:

This was the key reason, why we could not work on this more in detail and that I had to give the product back, not to loose the money and sit on a product with which I feel uncomfortably to work with.

Was kind of wasted time and money for the phone call and I am dissatisfied with Steinberg not to really work on issues if you need their support (maybe second time in the last 15+ years …). And this is then premium support for a premium product …

My cent ot this )… It’s just fine for me with the default colors of Nuenfo 10. The tools icons is more intelligible now. But surely there must be choice and maybe skins cause tastes differ.

This looks fantastic +1!

I do not talk about contrasts of the GUI in general.

I talk about eye irritating white dark contrasts in

  • icons to control the mouse function
  • hub file selection
  • and if I remember right also transports

Below screenshots of the relevant sections, how it was much better in Cubase 9 and older versions.

Take also into consideration, that having a 23" Full HD Screen could also result into a difference,
because Cubase icons will most likely appea bigger compared to screens with maybe much higher 4k resolution.

Here you see the icons like they were in Cubase9 / Nuendo 8 and older versions.
There is no nerving white on dark to show the function of the icon, my eye can directly identify the function
and is not irritated by blending white areas on dark. Simply black lines to show you the icons function.

Also the black from of Steinberg HUB for project selection, etc is much better to read.
In Cubase10/Nuendo 10 the fonts are bigger and white on dark is again not eye friendly.
I have problems to focus my eye on that.

I do not remember the transport field in Nuendo/Cubase 10 exactly, but I think there was a similar problem.
In older versions it was much better and the functions were clearer to see / identify for eyes.