Integration with Cubase

Discussions about our next-generation scoring application, Dorico.
Post Reply
tunesmith1801
New Member
Posts: 10
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2015 3:37 pm
Contact:

Integration with Cubase

Post by tunesmith1801 » Sun Jul 31, 2016 12:05 am

Will Dorico integrate with Cubase? Mock up a piece in Cubase and use Dorico for scores.

Jim
Jim
Windows 10, i7, 16gb Ram, (2) Delta 1010, M-Audio Fast Track Pro, Cubase 8.5,

DG
Member
Posts: 704
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2010 8:08 pm
Contact:

Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by DG » Sun Jul 31, 2016 10:40 am

Dorico is currently a standalone notation program, so there is no integration, apart from being able to import MIDI and Music XML files.

DG
Nuendo 6.07
Intel Xeon 3.0GHz 10 Core 20 Threads
32GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
nVidia GT 640 graphics card

User avatar
RimasG
New Member
Posts: 2
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2016 12:03 pm
Contact:

Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by RimasG » Sun Jul 31, 2016 3:09 pm

DG wrote:Dorico is currently a standalone notation program, so there is no integration, apart from being able to import MIDI and Music XML files.

DG


And what about FireWire?

User avatar
Daniel at Steinberg
Moderator
Posts: 5653
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2012 10:35 am
Contact:

Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Sun Jul 31, 2016 3:19 pm

Do you mean DV over FireWire for sync with video? Or something else?

Certainly Dorico does not yet have any specific video features, but this is in our plans for future versions.

Laurence Payne
Member
Posts: 314
Joined: Fri Dec 17, 2010 1:14 pm
Contact:

Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by Laurence Payne » Fri Aug 05, 2016 10:39 pm

I imagine RimasG means Rewire.

User avatar
RimasG
New Member
Posts: 2
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2016 12:03 pm
Contact:

Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by RimasG » Fri Aug 05, 2016 10:58 pm

Thank you, Laurence, I mean about ReWire exactly and confuse terminology. I'm so sorry :)

Now my question about ReWire possibilities.

DG
Member
Posts: 704
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2010 8:08 pm
Contact:

Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by DG » Sat Aug 06, 2016 10:04 am

RimasG wrote:Thank you, Laurence, I mean about ReWire exactly and confuse terminology. I'm so sorry :)

Now my question about ReWire possibilities.
No, this is not possible at the moment.

DG
Nuendo 6.07
Intel Xeon 3.0GHz 10 Core 20 Threads
32GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
nVidia GT 640 graphics card

Laurence Payne
Member
Posts: 314
Joined: Fri Dec 17, 2010 1:14 pm
Contact:

Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by Laurence Payne » Sat Aug 06, 2016 3:14 pm

The market SO wants a notation-based music production system, with audio/video tracks and full access to their choice of sample sets.

It's going to get SOME of that...

cparmerlee
New Member
Posts: 34
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 4:32 pm
Contact:

Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by cparmerlee » Thu Aug 11, 2016 1:35 am

Laurence Payne wrote:The market SO wants a notation-based music production system, with audio/video tracks and full access to their choice of sample sets.
There is a book that was rather famous in Silicon Valley during the 90s called "Accidental Empires". The thesis of the book was that some of the most successful companies actually missed the mark they were really shooting at, but ended up with something better, at least partly by accident. Their instincts put them in the right ballpark, but the real prize was different from what they thought it was. That is not to say that Bill Gates and Andy Grove were bumbling dummies who did everything wrong, yet just happened to stumble into success. Quite the opposite, they were people of great vision and instinct, but just didn't have their marketing radar fully calibrated. Their instincts got them close enough for the market to bring them the rest of the way.

That is the vibe I get from Dorico. Clearly the core team has been really focused on making a fundamental, generational step forward in how we go about building and expressing the notation. And nobody denies those advances will be most welcome. But it is does seem to be an accident of history that the product will be married to DAW technology, more-or-less from the ground up, like it or not. THIS, I believe, will prove to be the real breakthrough in the end.

Dorico won't end up there in the first release, but I hope there will be enough in the first release for the whole team to start to realize the power that can come from marrying notation and production much more seamlessly.

Laurence Payne
Member
Posts: 314
Joined: Fri Dec 17, 2010 1:14 pm
Contact:

Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by Laurence Payne » Thu Aug 11, 2016 1:18 pm

cparmerlee wrote:That is the vibe I get from Dorico. Clearly the core team has been really focused on making a fundamental, generational step forward in how we go about building and expressing the notation. And nobody denies those advances will be most welcome. But it is does seem to be an accident of history that the product will be married to DAW technology, more-or-less from the ground up, like it or not. THIS, I believe, will prove to be the real breakthrough in the end.
Whatever we may hope and dream, I'm afraid "Dorico is currently a standalone notation program, so there is no integration, apart from being able to import MIDI and Music XML files." doesn't sound much like being "married to Cubase from the ground up". Is DG giving us information or an opinion here?

User avatar
Alberto Maria
Junior Member
Posts: 97
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2011 7:33 pm
Contact:

Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by Alberto Maria » Thu Aug 11, 2016 3:03 pm

Integration with Cubendo is very important, as it is for Halion, for instance. Until now I've preferred using Cubase Score, instead of Sibelius or Finale, that I've experimented many times, exactly for this reason.

Therefore I cannot lose my hope, even if Dorico group is in London and not in Hamburg. For sure integration needs time & hard work, but it's worthwhile ;)

cparmerlee
New Member
Posts: 34
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 4:32 pm
Contact:

Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by cparmerlee » Thu Aug 11, 2016 10:25 pm

Laurence Payne wrote: Whatever we may hope and dream, I'm afraid "Dorico is currently a standalone notation program, so there is no integration, apart from being able to import MIDI and Music XML files." doesn't sound much like being "married to Cubase from the ground up". Is DG giving us information or an opinion here?
But its sound-related bits are derived from Cubase as I understand it. Therefore, some commonality between the two products will naturally happen, even if it isn't planned that way. This is the "accidental empires" stuff I mentioned.

I hope that the parties will come to understand there is a real market for further steps in this direction.

I assume that Presonus will eventually figure this out with their Studio One + Notion, just as Avid might eventually stumble upon this with Protools + Sibelius. But Steinberg has an opportunity to get out way ahead.

Laurence Payne
Member
Posts: 314
Joined: Fri Dec 17, 2010 1:14 pm
Contact:

Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by Laurence Payne » Fri Aug 12, 2016 1:09 pm

Steinberg had an opportunity (whether a practical one or not) to integrate Dorico as the Score Edit page in Cubase. It seems pretty clear that it has chosen not to.

User avatar
Alberto Maria
Junior Member
Posts: 97
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2011 7:33 pm
Contact:

Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by Alberto Maria » Fri Aug 12, 2016 2:14 pm

Laurence Payne wrote:...integrate Dorico as the Score Edit page in Cubase. It seems pretty clear that it has chosen not to.
...until now... :roll:

Laurence Payne
Member
Posts: 314
Joined: Fri Dec 17, 2010 1:14 pm
Contact:

Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by Laurence Payne » Fri Aug 12, 2016 3:25 pm

I fear you must integrate from day 1. After that, all you can do is try to hook in.

User avatar
Alberto Maria
Junior Member
Posts: 97
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2011 7:33 pm
Contact:

Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by Alberto Maria » Fri Aug 12, 2016 4:27 pm

Yes, Laurence, for sure! :) But I understand that a true integration from start, for a lot of reasons, architectural, political and geographical, would have been very hard. Anyway there are many forms of integration, more efficient than importing MIDI or XML. We have just to wait to understand ;)

Rob Tuley
Member
Posts: 887
Joined: Fri May 20, 2016 12:41 am

Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by Rob Tuley » Fri Aug 12, 2016 9:43 pm

Laurence Payne wrote:I fear you must integrate from day 1. After that, all you can do is try to hook in.
"Hooking in" cuts both ways. If Steinberg had wanted to make a notation app that was constrained by a MIDI-based concept of how music should be represented, one could consider the questions whether (1) they would have needed to hire the Dorico team to build it and (2) whether the Dorico team would have accepted the job if it had been offered.

But another strategy would be to modify Cubase (or its successor) to "hook in" to Dorico, if that isn't too much of an intellectual stretch for sequencer users who are happy working with technology that hasn't changed much since the 1980s - i.e. MIDI.

All this is pure speculation on my part, of course.

cparmerlee
New Member
Posts: 34
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 4:32 pm
Contact:

Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by cparmerlee » Fri Aug 12, 2016 9:52 pm

Laurence Payne wrote:I fear you must integrate from day 1. After that, all you can do is try to hook in.
That is not necessarily true.We know from various discussions on this forum that the Dorico design (at least at the philosophical level if not the code level as of today) includes:
  • the concept of players and parts that can map directly to Cubase tracks
  • adoption of Steinberg code (presumably derived from Cubase) as the playback engine
  • a playback GUI (eventually if not in the first release) that is Cubase-like
  • the intention to support VSTis and VST effects in a more or less open manner, although they will not support all the older VST protocol levels
  • the ability to operate on the MIDI separately from the notation to alter note lengths etc
This is a very good starting point. The part that would not necessarily come easily would be to compose in the "DAW view" and have the MIDI end up seamlessly as Dorico notation. That would be "the" big advance. I don't mean to trivialize that. It would be a significant development task. But given the other foundations enumerated above, it just doesn't sound that overwhelming to me.

And nothing says that all of these things must be in a single product. I could easily see the basic Dorico shipping with a "Cubase ultralight", but also having the option to hook Dorico to full (purchased) Cubase. And likewise, Cubase has its own limited notation, so there could be an optional product that would enable Cubase users to operate seamlessly with Dorico.

I am mainly a SONAR user and also have StudioOne. I have never bought Cubase, but would do so in a heartbeat if there were good integration between Dorico and Cubase. And I bet there are loads of current Cubase users who would be happy to buy Dorico if that meant there was an easy way for their Cubase-based compositions to be notated in Dorico.

Clearly the things I'm discussing are not (and should not be) the priority for the first release or two. But it also shouldn't be a 3-year project to add these capabilities.

Mij
New Member
Posts: 15
Joined: Wed Aug 14, 2013 4:11 am
Contact:

Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by Mij » Thu Aug 18, 2016 1:31 am

Unless they come up with an integrated solution, I see no use in Dorico. I bought Cubase 7 on the premise that their notation software was good enough for me to input some music I've done, and then use their VST to assign instruments. I had nothing to record at that point and I figured it would still have been a valid teaching of how Cubase works. It would have get me started. And I paid more that 500 canadian dollars.
The notation software they offer in Cubase is a total scrap unless you want to spend your evenings figuring out all the maths implied in it. A Mathematician job, not a Musician job. I didn't understand at that time why there were some notation software like Sibelius and Finale that worked with the musician instead of Cubase notation software that worked against the musician,
So until they come up with an integrated solution, it's no use. Count me out.
Music of course !

vintagevibe
Junior Member
Posts: 186
Joined: Sun Jun 02, 2013 3:33 am
Contact:

Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by vintagevibe » Thu Aug 18, 2016 4:28 am

Mij wrote: The notation software they offer in Cubase is a total scrap unless you want to spend your evenings figuring out all the maths implied in it. A Mathematician job, not a Musician job. I didn't understand at that time why there were some notation software like Sibelius and Finale that worked with the musician instead of Cubase notation software that worked against the musician,
So until they come up with an integrated solution, it's no use. Count me out.
That's ridiculous. There is no "math" involved and Cubase has arguably the best notation inside of a DAW. I work a lot in Cubase notation and have no problems with it. It will never be as full featured as a dedicated notation program and there are things they could improve on but I really have no idea what you're talking about.
Windows 8.1/64, Intel i7 2600K, 16G RAM, 6TB 7200RPM storage, and bunch of software.

Laurence Payne
Member
Posts: 314
Joined: Fri Dec 17, 2010 1:14 pm
Contact:

Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by Laurence Payne » Thu Aug 18, 2016 10:16 am

Mij wrote: The notation software they offer in Cubase is a total scrap unless you want to spend your evenings figuring out all the maths implied in it. A Mathematician job, not a Musician job.
Were you expecting freely-played music to be auto-magically converted to readable notation? That's not really going to happen in any of the current sequencer or score publishing programs. They work very much on the principle that if you know what notation you want, they'll help you get it on paper. Not 'you play it, we'll tell you what the notation ought to be'.

It's coming though. Have a look at a program called 'Scorecloud'.

User avatar
Alberto Maria
Junior Member
Posts: 97
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2011 7:33 pm
Contact:

Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by Alberto Maria » Thu Aug 18, 2016 11:58 am

A tiny example of what the crap Cubase Score can do... ;)
Attachments
Tiny.jpg
(205.47 KiB) Not downloaded yet

Laurence Payne
Member
Posts: 314
Joined: Fri Dec 17, 2010 1:14 pm
Contact:

Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by Laurence Payne » Thu Aug 18, 2016 12:59 pm

Alberto Maria wrote:A tiny example of what the crap Cubase Score can do... ;)
Indeed. Now, if only Avid had fired the ProTools developers same time they did the Sibelius ones, Steinberg hired them all to develop a fully-integrated music production/score publishing program without the baggage of Cubase or Sibelius... we'd have to put all our eggs in one basket :-)

Rob Tuley
Member
Posts: 887
Joined: Fri May 20, 2016 12:41 am

Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by Rob Tuley » Thu Aug 18, 2016 2:56 pm

Laurence Payne wrote:Now, if only Avid had fired the ProTools developers same time they did the Sibelius ones, Steinberg hired them all to develop a fully-integrated music production/score publishing program without the baggage of Cubase or Sibelius...
Pre-announcing a new product that everybody thinks they want to buy and which replaces one of your existing products can be a recipe for commercial suicide - sales of the existing product suddenly drop to zero while everybody is waiting for the replacement.

That strategy has killed many small tech companies in the past. Of course Dorico isn't a "direct replacement" for any existing Steinberg products - not in version 1.0, anyway. Hurting your competitors with pre-announcements of products is a different strategy!

Laurence Payne
Member
Posts: 314
Joined: Fri Dec 17, 2010 1:14 pm
Contact:

Re: Integration with Cubase

Post by Laurence Payne » Thu Aug 18, 2016 4:48 pm

Rob Tuley wrote:
Laurence Payne wrote:Now, if only Avid had fired the ProTools developers same time they did the Sibelius ones, Steinberg hired them all to develop a fully-integrated music production/score publishing program without the baggage of Cubase or Sibelius...
Pre-announcing a new product that everybody thinks they want to buy and which replaces one of your existing products can be a recipe for commercial suicide - sales of the existing product suddenly drop to zero while everybody is waiting for the replacement.

That strategy has killed many small tech companies in the past. Of course Dorico isn't a "direct replacement" for any existing Steinberg products - not in version 1.0, anyway. Hurting your competitors with pre-announcements of products is a different strategy!
Oh, I know! I'm just dreaming of the program I'd LIKE to own. There are SO many reasons that isn't going to happen.

Anyway, if my music production and score publishing were bundled in one application, it would HAVE to be useable on both my laptop and studio machines without messing around with a dongle.

Post Reply

Return to “Dorico”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: andgle, helgetjelta, Pietzcker and 14 guests