AAF files with multiple sample rates

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DCooper
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AAF files with multiple sample rates

Post by DCooper » Thu Aug 18, 2016 3:51 am

Does anyone have a work around for importing AAF files containing audio with different sample rates? Trying to convert the audio after importing just stuffs up all the edits and sync etc. Yes I could ask the editor to fix this but all I get is 'it works fine in pro tools' and I hate having to make excuses.


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Re: AAF files with multiple sample rates

Post by tim_heinrich » Fri Aug 19, 2016 12:28 pm

It's sad, that Nuendo converts audio-files into the right sample rate, but not AAF Files.

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Re: AAF files with multiple sample rates

Post by The Sound Post » Fri Aug 19, 2016 5:14 pm

Hi Dave,

Same problem here. Yesterday I received an AAF from FCP-X, containing 44.1, 48 and 96kHz files. You are correct: converting the files screwed with the timing, which meant I had to check the whole show, clip by clip. It took me hours to straighten it out. What a nightmare!

Please address this issue, Steinberg.

Best regards,

Marty.
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Re: AAF files with multiple sample rates

Post by Heiner Einbier » Fri Aug 19, 2016 9:03 pm

+ 1 here.
That really is an issue that needs to be tackled.
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Re: AAF files with multiple sample rates

Post by Neil K » Fri Aug 19, 2016 10:40 pm

Same here. When possible I educate the video editor on forcing all clips to project sample rate when they start a project. It's amazing that a video editing program can mix sample rates and Nuendo can't!
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Re: AAF files with multiple sample rates

Post by Heiner Einbier » Fri Aug 19, 2016 10:56 pm

Neil K wrote:Same here. When possible I educate the video editor on forcing all clips to project sample rate when they start a project. It's amazing that a video editing program can mix sample rates and Nuendo can't!
Weeeeeelllll, I must add, when I was starting out as a rookie editor, some 17 years ago, we were taught about the joys of sample rate conversion and that you never, ever, EVER submit production sound with anything but fs=48 kHz.
I know I'm sounding like an old fart now, but that has slipped in recent years, as the technical skills of SOME newer colleagues leave somewhat to be desired, let's say...

Nonetheless, Nuendo should be able to convert the sample rate in AAFs, especially since it does it without issue when importing single audio clips.
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Re: AAF files with multiple sample rates

Post by Pezzatronic » Sat Aug 20, 2016 12:03 am

With FCP X this is a consistent issue for me. I deal with it by processing the AAF through Pro Tools, which converts everything to to the session rate. I open the AAF in PT, then re-export it, ideally as a linked AAF. I shouldn't have to do this, but it's an easy step if you have PT.

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Re: AAF files with multiple sample rates

Post by Fredo » Sat Aug 20, 2016 8:13 am

What if you import the AAF like it is, and convert the "wrong" files in the pool to the correct sample rate.
That should work, no!?

Fredo

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Re: AAF files with multiple sample rates

Post by Fredo » Sat Aug 20, 2016 8:17 am

And for the record. (And for the sake of sounding like an old fart)
The specification of the AAF protocol does *not* allow mixed sample rates.

AAF ASSOCIATION SPECIFICATION
Advanced Authoring Format (AAF)
Edit Protocol

(-)
7.3 Audio edit rate and sample rate
All audio tracks within a file shall have the same edit rate and sample rate.
(-)

Where the feature set of an exporting application supports program metadata that the Edit Protocol
specifically disallows (e.g. a program consisting of different audio sample rates which is disallowed in
Section 7.3), the application shall not export that metadata to an Edit Protocol AAF file. The omission of
any metadata on export in order to comply with the Edit Protocol should be logged.

Fredo

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Re: AAF files with multiple sample rates

Post by The Sound Post » Sat Aug 20, 2016 9:41 am

Fredo wrote:What if you import the AAF like it is, and convert the "wrong" files in the pool to the correct sample rate.
That should work, no!?

Fredo
Hi Fredo,

That's what I've been doing, but then the audio shifts inside the clips, leaving me with horrible music cuts that I have to manually adjust.

By the way, do you know of a way to sort the files in the pool according to sample rate? That would be really helpful. I can't seem to be able to.

Marty.
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Re: AAF files with multiple sample rates

Post by Fredo » Sat Aug 20, 2016 1:52 pm

Hi Marty,

Did you select "replace files"?
Seems to work for me here ....

Sorting the info column seems to work for me, except that the first and last file stay "glued".
But everything inbetween seems to sort fine.

Fredo

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Re: AAF files with multiple sample rates

Post by The Sound Post » Sat Aug 20, 2016 3:06 pm

"My" info column sorts according to file length, not sample rate.

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Re: AAF files with multiple sample rates

Post by DCooper » Sun Aug 21, 2016 11:36 pm

Fredo wrote:And for the record. (And for the sake of sounding like an old fart)
The specification of the AAF protocol does *not* allow mixed sample rates.

AAF ASSOCIATION SPECIFICATION
Advanced Authoring Format (AAF)
Edit Protocol

(-)
7.3 Audio edit rate and sample rate
All audio tracks within a file shall have the same edit rate and sample rate.
(-)

Where the feature set of an exporting application supports program metadata that the Edit Protocol
specifically disallows (e.g. a program consisting of different audio sample rates which is disallowed in
Section 7.3), the application shall not export that metadata to an Edit Protocol AAF file. The omission of
any metadata on export in order to comply with the Edit Protocol should be logged.

Fredo
Yep, said all that to the editor and got 'but it works in Pro Tools', unfortunately its not about who's wrong or right but just whatever works

So the only workaround is to open it in pro tools or spend hours fixing all the edits that involve the converted audio? This needs a fix asap.

Dave

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Re: AAF files with multiple sample rates

Post by Fredo » Mon Aug 22, 2016 7:22 am

Have you tried my solution?
And there is always AA Translator ...
http://www.aatranslator.com.au/

Fredo

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Re: AAF files with multiple sample rates

Post by MattiasNYC » Mon Aug 22, 2016 8:26 am

DCooper wrote:got 'but it works in Pro Tools', unfortunately its not about who's wrong or right but just whatever works
Yep. I have gotten the same comment. Again, with PT being the industry standard Nuendo just needs to adopt some of the same functionality.
DCooper wrote:So the only workaround is to open it in pro tools or spend hours fixing all the edits that involve the converted audio? This needs a fix asap.

Dave

Dave
I have opened tracks with offensive audio in a separate 44.1 project, tweaked edits on that audio, bounced and then imported into my 48k project. At least that way I don't have to rely on PT to get it done. But yea, I would certainly prefer a simple sample rate conversion on import.
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Re: AAF files with multiple sample rates

Post by The Sound Post » Mon Aug 22, 2016 10:04 am

Fredo wrote:Have you tried my solution?
And there is always AA Translator ...
http://www.aatranslator.com.au/

Fredo
Hi Fredo,

Converting and replacing the files does work, but the timing and the edits go out of whack. You don't have that problem? Or are you just converting some random 44.1 files? Try a project with music edits. After the conversion the clips are off by a varying amount of frames.

By the way, I tried AATranslator, but it won't open the AAF. I emailed them about it.

Marty.
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Re: AAF files with multiple sample rates

Post by Fredo » Mon Aug 22, 2016 5:26 pm

The Sound Post wrote:Hi Fredo,

Converting and replacing the files does work, but the timing and the edits go out of whack. You don't have that problem? Or are you just converting some random 44.1 files? Try a project with music edits. After the conversion the clips are off by a varying amount of frames.

By the way, I tried AATranslator, but it won't open the AAF. I emailed them about it.

Marty.
Yeah, it indeed screws up edits like you say.
It is indeed a PITA. I absolutely hate it when someone decides that standards and protocols can be broken for their own convenience. Probably why AA Translator is having a problem with it too.

Fredo

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Re: AAF files with multiple sample rates

Post by The Sound Post » Mon Aug 22, 2016 5:31 pm

FCP X is a PITA. Period. Too bad so many people use it. Give me an AVID AAF any day of the week...
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Re: AAF files with multiple sample rates

Post by DCooper » Thu Aug 25, 2016 1:51 am

The Sound Post wrote:FCP X is a PITA. Period. Too bad so many people use it. Give me an AVID AAF any day of the week...
The AAFs I am having a problem with are from Avid......

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Re: AAF files with multiple sample rates

Post by The Sound Post » Thu Aug 25, 2016 9:51 am

DCooper wrote:
The Sound Post wrote:FCP X is a PITA. Period. Too bad so many people use it. Give me an AVID AAF any day of the week...
The AAFs I am having a problem with are from Avid......
Well, then the editor should have no problem exporting it again at 48kHz. Yes I know, it works in PT...
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Re: AAF files with multiple sample rates

Post by DCooper » Fri Aug 26, 2016 3:47 am

The Sound Post wrote:
DCooper wrote:
The Sound Post wrote:FCP X is a PITA. Period. Too bad so many people use it. Give me an AVID AAF any day of the week...
The AAFs I am having a problem with are from Avid......
Well, then the editor should have no problem exporting it again at 48kHz. Yes I know, it works in PT...
Apparently it has something to do with pulling the bits of video with the offending audio off an isis server and not wanting to generate a bunch of new files converting everything and of course 'it works fine in pro tools'. I just want to get on with the job and not have to argue.

Dave

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Re: AAF files with multiple sample rates

Post by Tumppi Järnefelt » Fri Aug 26, 2016 8:17 am

Dave, I understand very well...
But still I´d insist of getting it right from the source. If we give up on this what is next?
Next time they make us convert the video also to correct format. They just give us what´s easiest for them.
Next they give us just the project and we have to do all the exports.

I don´t like this path although these are worst case scenarious.
We loose time, money and who´s responsibility it is if something is wrong after conversions etc...
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Re: AAF files with multiple sample rates

Post by Fredo » Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:42 am

Tumppi Järnefelt wrote:Next time they make us convert the video also to correct format. They just give us what´s easiest for them.
That is already the case. On our last project, they refused to give us a ProRes becuase the files are too big, and they make one H264 for all parties concerned.
And we have to deliver our all premixes, intermediate stuff, also on a H264 video, so they can look/listen at it anywhere without having to deal with "adding audio to the video".
We loose time, money and who´s responsibility it is if something is wrong after conversions etc...
There are no shortcuts, easy paths and faster procedures in post Production.
The problem just get shifted/moved/shoved in to someone else.
And since sh** floats downhill ...
(There even was a time when sh** *rolled* downhill, but that is also a long time ago ...)


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Re: AAF files with multiple sample rates

Post by DCooper » Sun Aug 28, 2016 8:55 pm

Tumppi Järnefelt wrote:Dave, I understand very well...
But still I´d insist of getting it right from the source. If we give up on this what is next?
Next time they make us convert the video also to correct format. They just give us what´s easiest for them.
Next they give us just the project and we have to do all the exports.

I don´t like this path although these are worst case scenarious.
We loose time, money and who´s responsibility it is if something is wrong after conversions etc...
The main problem is that it works in pro tools. I work freelance picking up the over flow work for a company that also has an in house audio suite running pro tools. I insist on running Nuendo because I believe its to be far better (quicker and more efficient etc) than pro tools but it gets very tough making that argument when I have to go back to the editors and get them to redo exports for me that worked fine in the pro tools suite. Unfortunately Nuendo is still in the position that if pro tools can do it Nuendo needs to do it better.

Dave

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Re: AAF files with multiple sample rates

Post by ltf3 » Mon Aug 29, 2016 6:23 pm

I too think this needs to be addressed.

"Insisting" it be correct at the source is all very well, but it doesn't take into account accidental errors. And video editing apps deal with mixed sample rate audio seamlessly. An editor might not even know theres a problem being sent down the line.

There's no reason Nuendo shouldn't be a gate keeper for us. Lawd knows there's enough other problems for us poor post people to worry about!
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