TAPE-STYLE VARISPEED

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Re: TAPE-STYLE VARISPEED

Post by Brandy »

Stephen57 wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:16 pm
agrpap wrote:
Fri Dec 23, 2016 8:40 am
No workarounds, just a simple knob that adjusts playback speed. For the love of god, man!! PLEASE. It is an age-old recording trick that tons of people love to employ. I and others have been asking for this for YEARS. Why the resistance?
Playback of what?

Cubase Pro 9 has tape-style time stretch.
Thats something completely different and has nothing do do with the Varispeed thing :)
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Re: TAPE-STYLE VARISPEED

Post by digi001 »

MrSoundman wrote:
Sun Sep 10, 2017 4:36 pm
digi001 wrote:
Sun Sep 10, 2017 4:24 pm
I actually wanted to use it today on a session....(wanted to slow down the track to overdub a arpeggio synth part which would be tough to play in real-time)
That wouldn't really be tape-style though, which also drops the pitch. If your other tracks were MIDI, you'd just drop the tempo ..... if there's any audio track, then you'd want it to maintain it's pitch when slowed down while you play along. Tape-style would both slow the tempo and drop the pitch.
I should clarify....I'm not sure you understand my application.

I AM trying to use this just like a Tape Machine.

Not trying to do a Tape Drop FX.
Not trying to time warp every single audio file in my project, record something, then un-warp every audio file back. (would also include converting any Midi files to audio first)

I record my 'Actual' Synths using Audio channels. They are hardware synths.

I slow the entire track down to something like -5 semitones or -12 semitones. Play the part on the synth -5 semitones or -12 semitones as well on the keyboard, then speed it all back up. (works cool sometimes the other way too) In the same vein of the piano part on the track 'In my life' by the Beatles if you ever heard of them ;)

*I actually switched to Logic 9/X and used this for a few years solely because of the Tape-Style varispeed and 1 or 2 other features. It's really important to me and part of my workflow.

Now sometimes I will have a Piano or Electric Piano or other World Sound as MIDI in my project since I don't have space or own these instruments. What is great about the Logic X varispeed is that it pitches these down as well during varispeed.
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Re: TAPE-STYLE VARISPEED

Post by Stephen57 »

Brandy wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:27 pm
Stephen57 wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:16 pm
agrpap wrote:
Fri Dec 23, 2016 8:40 am
No workarounds, just a simple knob that adjusts playback speed. For the love of god, man!! PLEASE. It is an age-old recording trick that tons of people love to employ. I and others have been asking for this for YEARS. Why the resistance?
Playback of what?

Cubase Pro 9 has tape-style time stretch.
Thats something completely different and has nothing do do with the Varispeed thing :)
Playback of what? And if it's completely different, please explain.
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Re: TAPE-STYLE VARISPEED

Post by Stephen57 »

digi001 wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 4:37 pm
MrSoundman wrote:
Sun Sep 10, 2017 4:36 pm
digi001 wrote:
Sun Sep 10, 2017 4:24 pm
I actually wanted to use it today on a session....(wanted to slow down the track to overdub a arpeggio synth part which would be tough to play in real-time)
That wouldn't really be tape-style though, which also drops the pitch. If your other tracks were MIDI, you'd just drop the tempo ..... if there's any audio track, then you'd want it to maintain it's pitch when slowed down while you play along. Tape-style would both slow the tempo and drop the pitch.
I should clarify....I'm not sure you understand my application.

I AM trying to use this just like a Tape Machine.

Not trying to do a Tape Drop FX.
Not trying to time warp every single audio file in my project, record something, then un-warp every audio file back. (would also include converting any Midi files to audio first)

I record my 'Actual' Synths using Audio channels. They are hardware synths.

I slow the entire track down to something like -5 semitones or -12 semitones. Play the part on the synth -5 semitones or -12 semitones as well on the keyboard, then speed it all back up. (works cool sometimes the other way too) In the same vein of the piano part on the track 'In my life' by the Beatles if you ever heard of them ;)

*I actually switched to Logic 9/X and used this for a few years solely because of the Tape-Style varispeed and 1 or 2 other features. It's really important to me and part of my workflow.

Now sometimes I will have a Piano or Electric Piano or other World Sound as MIDI in my project since I don't have space or own these instruments. What is great about the Logic X varispeed is that it pitches these down as well during varispeed.
What's the purpose of doing this?
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Re: TAPE-STYLE VARISPEED

Post by digi001 »

Stephen57 wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:10 pm
digi001 wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 4:37 pm
MrSoundman wrote:
Sun Sep 10, 2017 4:36 pm
That wouldn't really be tape-style though, which also drops the pitch. If your other tracks were MIDI, you'd just drop the tempo ..... if there's any audio track, then you'd want it to maintain it's pitch when slowed down while you play along. Tape-style would both slow the tempo and drop the pitch.
I should clarify....I'm not sure you understand my application.

I AM trying to use this just like a Tape Machine.

Not trying to do a Tape Drop FX.
Not trying to time warp every single audio file in my project, record something, then un-warp every audio file back. (would also include converting any Midi files to audio first)

I record my 'Actual' Synths using Audio channels. They are hardware synths.

I slow the entire track down to something like -5 semitones or -12 semitones. Play the part on the synth -5 semitones or -12 semitones as well on the keyboard, then speed it all back up. (works cool sometimes the other way too) In the same vein of the piano part on the track 'In my life' by the Beatles if you ever heard of them ;)

*I actually switched to Logic 9/X and used this for a few years solely because of the Tape-Style varispeed and 1 or 2 other features. It's really important to me and part of my workflow.

Now sometimes I will have a Piano or Electric Piano or other World Sound as MIDI in my project since I don't have space or own these instruments. What is great about the Logic X varispeed is that it pitches these down as well during varispeed.
What's the purpose of doing this?
For synths.... it's mostly a trick of being able to play it fast enough, but still be human and have a groove. (Makes it kind of sound like early electronica BBC, not the new crap). Sometimes the sound will change (if it has alot of contour and vibrato, but otherwise sometimes cant hear a difference)

For most other stuff, it totally changes the timbre of the sound.
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Re: TAPE-STYLE VARISPEED

Post by digi001 »

This is basically 1 of like 3 total FX possibilities the Beatles and other bands from back in the day had. It what made Sgt Pepper and those types of albums sound different. Otherworldly timbres all over that.
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Re: TAPE-STYLE VARISPEED

Post by Brandy »

Stephen57 wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:58 pm
Brandy wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:27 pm
Stephen57 wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:16 pm


Playback of what?

Cubase Pro 9 has tape-style time stretch.
Thats something completely different and has nothing do do with the Varispeed thing :)
Playback of what? And if it's completely different, please explain.

well, these time stretch options are more or less for editing events - for fixing performance as well as for creativity etc.

The varispeed we are talking about is some kind of a "master speed override" which enables us to playback the full project (incl EVERYTHING) in a different speed - when tape machine style then with altered pitch as well... This can be useful for:

- creativity/sound (like digi001 described)
- for recording complex stuff in a bit lowered tempo (not always a good thing to do but sometimes it can be handy)
- for recording vocals which are a bit out of range of the singer (just record it slower/lower - often just a bit does the trick)

all these things were some kind of "butter and bread" in days of tape recording - they had basically nothing but THIS was possible :)
In our case we basically have everything - but this is not possible :)

in my case there is another kind of use:

- for practicing new material, I am a drummer, I often have to play fast and complex stuff, maybe prior to recording it.. so lets have the playback 20% slowed down, learn it, practice, now only 10% down... practice.. then regular speed, practice and record it.
I tried to use Logic on my macbook for this but it is too complicated/time consuming to transfer all the stuff from Cubase to Logic.. and I still do not have a clue about using Logic :-)
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Re: TAPE-STYLE VARISPEED

Post by alexis »

Are there Varispeed free plug-ins high quality enough to be used on exposed solo vocals?
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-Cubase "Safe Start Mode" (CTRL-ALT-SHIFT)
-Get variable-tempo audio to follow a grid here,
-Replacing freely-timed section into a variable tempo project

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Re: TAPE-STYLE VARISPEED

Post by Brandy »

when this was made with "sample rate" adjustments it will sound really good. Or when you use a tape machine for this :)
Of course at some point you will hear artefacts from formants etc which are sounding not natural anymore when changed in pitch...

If you just change pitch OR tempo there will be processing involved which will alter the soundquality.

Exposed solo vocals are often tuned with Autotune/Melodyne - so I would say: It is just "a bit" it might be fine and not too much audible - if you change pitch too much... well.. you know.
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Re: TAPE-STYLE VARISPEED

Post by digi001 »

alexis wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:14 pm
Are there Varispeed free plug-ins high quality enough to be used on exposed solo vocals?
If it is truly just a speed algorithm then it comes down to only how fast the 1's and 0's are being played back. There is no artifacts or loss of info like the time-stretching stuff. (It's like playing a 33rpm record at 45rpm if you know what that means) No digital artifacts.

There is some slight housekeeping like anti-aliasging filter maybe to avoid any issues, but overall its a dead simple algorithm without degradation of the audio. You could easily use it on a vocal without hearing any issues. (In extreme cases it might make them sound like a Chipmunk or an Alien due to the change in timbre, but not a 'digital' artificial chipmunk or 'digital' artificial alien.) if that makes any sense :shock:
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Re: TAPE-STYLE VARISPEED

Post by alexis »

Got it, thanks. What are people using instead (free being better)?
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-Cubase "Safe Start Mode" (CTRL-ALT-SHIFT)
-Get variable-tempo audio to follow a grid here,
-Replacing freely-timed section into a variable tempo project

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Re: TAPE-STYLE VARISPEED

Post by alexis »

Not free, but apparently Reaper has Varispeed control right in the Transport Bar! ( https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques ... cts-reaper - with vid!)

Also - can this be true ... someone on the web said that Cubase 5 had that built in. If true, do we still have access to Cubase 5?

I couldn't find any links that were working for truly free VariSpeed.

Anyone else?

[EDIT] But wait, I am confused - doesn't Elastique Tape mode already act as VariSpeed, as at 3:25 here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7qAZXb ... 34DF55C11A ?
Alexis

-Cubase "Safe Start Mode" (CTRL-ALT-SHIFT)
-Get variable-tempo audio to follow a grid here,
-Replacing freely-timed section into a variable tempo project

Cubase 9.0.20; i5-4570 3.2GHz, 16GB RAM; W10 Pro 64-bit on Samsung SSD 840 Pro 256GB; Seagate 1TB SATA 600 Audio; UR28M; Motif8; UAD-2 Solo; Jamstix 3.6; RevoicePro3.3; EZDrummer 2

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Re: TAPE-STYLE VARISPEED

Post by digi001 »

alexis wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:06 pm
Got it, thanks. What are people using instead (free being better)?
I'm not sure what you mean or understand your question?
Basically any free audio editing program will probably have it. It's not some magical algorithm, its literally playing the bits back faster or slower.
But the point here we are trying to make is we want it included in the transport bar and convenient to use in our projects like Logic or Reaper.

Do you have a free audio editor? Audacity?......(If your looking for it, it just might not be called exactly 'Vari-speed'). In Audicity it is called 'Change Speed'.
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Re: TAPE-STYLE VARISPEED

Post by alexis »

I have Cubase.

My questions were:

1) doesn't Elastique Tape mode already act as VariSpeed, as at 3:25 here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7qAZXb ... 34DF55C11A ?

2) Is this true ... someone on the web said that Cubase 5 had that built in. If true, do we still have access to Cubase 5?

3) Thank you for pointing out that "Basically any free audio editing program will probably have it". What are you personally using to get your VariSpeed done? Anyone else?
Last edited by alexis on Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
Alexis

-Cubase "Safe Start Mode" (CTRL-ALT-SHIFT)
-Get variable-tempo audio to follow a grid here,
-Replacing freely-timed section into a variable tempo project

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Re: TAPE-STYLE VARISPEED

Post by digi001 »

alexis wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:00 am
I have Cubase.
Oh you are asking for like a VST insert?

No i dont think it is possible that way due to the nature of slowing or speeding time.
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Re: TAPE-STYLE VARISPEED

Post by digi001 »

alexis wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:00 am
1) doesn't Elastique Tape mode already act as VariSpeed, as at 3:25 here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7qAZXb ... 34DF55C11A ?
Yes I think so.
But it's not so convenient/creative workflow to go and do this for every single track. Plus it asks about Tempos and BPMs. Would be nice to work in Cents and Semi-tones.
alexis wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:00 am
2) Is this true ... someone on the web said that Cubase 5 had that built in. If true, do we still have access to Cubase 5?
I dont think so. I just switched over from Cubase 6 and it didn't have it there. I bet they were confused by something similar to Elastique Tape. It might of technically been there via something like that....but not what we are describing we want with a single knob showing semi-tones/cents adjustment for entire track.
alexis wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:00 am
3) Thank you for pointing out that "Basically any free audio editing program will probably have it". What are you personally using to get your VariSpeed done? Anyone else?
Only DAW i have that supports it is Logic X so I could do it there.
Or I just use my actual tape machine with varispeed to do it....but only goes +-10% which is ok for some stuff but not extreme fx, however this would almost guarantee things wont line up if I was using bpm or a grid. The wow/flutter would put it out of sync.
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Re: TAPE-STYLE VARISPEED

Post by digi001 »

Brandy wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:27 pm
Stephen57 wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:16 pm
agrpap wrote:
Fri Dec 23, 2016 8:40 am
No workarounds, just a simple knob that adjusts playback speed. For the love of god, man!! PLEASE. It is an age-old recording trick that tons of people love to employ. I and others have been asking for this for YEARS. Why the resistance?
Playback of what?

Cubase Pro 9 has tape-style time stretch.
Thats something completely different and has nothing do do with the Varispeed thing :)
For clarification, I believe this response is wrong/misleading.
The tape-style time stretch process itself (I believe) is similar to what we are asking for.... except with a totally different application/interface of it.
We want it in a different way.
Last edited by digi001 on Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:47 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: TAPE-STYLE VARISPEED

Post by alexis »

digi001 wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:28 am
alexis wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:00 am
1) doesn't Elastique Tape mode already act as VariSpeed, as at 3:25 here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7qAZXb ... 34DF55C11A ?
Yes I think so.
But it's not so convenient/creative workflow to go and do this for every single track. Plus it asks about Tempos and BPMs. Would be nice to work in Cents and Semi-tones.
Ah yes, I understand, thank you for explaining further.




digi001 wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:28 am
alexis wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:00 am
2) Is this true ... someone on the web said that Cubase 5 had that built in. If true, do we still have access to Cubase 5?
I dont think so. I just switched over from Cubase 6 and it didn't have it there. I bet they were confused by something similar to Elastique Tape. It might of technically been there via something like that....but not what we are describing we want with a single knob showing semi-tones/cents adjustment for entire track.
Well, various people have said Cubase 5.1, not Cubase 6. Maybe someone with Cubase 5.1 or with a good memory can weigh in.



digi001 wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:28 am
alexis wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:00 am
3) Thank you for pointing out that "Basically any free audio editing program will probably have it". What are you personally using to get your VariSpeed done? Anyone else?
Only DAW i have that supports it is Logic X so I could do it there.
Or I just use my actual tape machine with varispeed to do it....but only goes +-10% which is ok for some stuff but not extreme fx, however this would almost guarantee things wont line up if I was using bpm or a grid. The wow/flutter would put it out of sync.
Thanks for that. Reaper apparently has that as well.






I appreciate your taking the time to answer, thank you.
Alexis

-Cubase "Safe Start Mode" (CTRL-ALT-SHIFT)
-Get variable-tempo audio to follow a grid here,
-Replacing freely-timed section into a variable tempo project

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Re: TAPE-STYLE VARISPEED

Post by knuckle47 »

I have to admit, I had used the musical mode tempo changes to cover a few difficult guitar track parts and then returned them up to normal speed. I went from like 140 down to 85-90 and my fingers were able to do it correctly then.

So from my group of vintage arthritic friends

+1
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Re: TAPE-STYLE VARISPEED

Post by digi001 »

knuckle47 wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:56 am
I have to admit, I had used the musical mode tempo changes to cover a few difficult guitar track parts and then returned them up to normal speed. I went from like 140 down to 85-90 and my fingers were able to do it correctly then.

So from my group of vintage arthritic friends

+1
You must of done this with one of the algorithms that doesn't change pitch? (NOT the Tape Mode)
Otherwise you would have had to do some math/experimentation to figure out how to transpose the BPMs to Semi-tones?
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Re: TAPE-STYLE VARISPEED

Post by knuckle47 »

You are right....it would have been more complex...my mistake

But it worked great
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Re: TAPE-STYLE VARISPEED

Post by peakae »

Of cause it works in Cubase, just use the audio pool, select everything and enable musical mode and set the original tempo.
If they all are selected it will change it for all. Chose the algorithm while you are in the pool, tape style is really not that usable when it comes to slow down for tracking purposes, you would have to retune your instrument and who wants to do that when it not necessary. The algorithms are not simple, they are quite advanced, chopping audio up in tiny bits and reassemble them to fit the tempo. After recording your track and setting tempo back it will only be that track that is affected by the algorithm.
And there are artifacts on that track.
Cubase 5 did not have anything that got removed, nor did C3 or C4, maybe Cubase VST 5.1 but nothing I ever used, it might have had.
Last edited by peakae on Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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alexis
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Re: TAPE-STYLE VARISPEED

Post by alexis »

So I guess for now on PC it's either maybe VST 5.1 (no way that can be accessed or used on a modern computer, is there?), or Reaper?

(Though Reaper's is not calibrated in cents it appears. There must be some conversion of percentage slowing down/speeding up to cents, but I actually had a hard time finding out with Google)
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-Cubase "Safe Start Mode" (CTRL-ALT-SHIFT)
-Get variable-tempo audio to follow a grid here,
-Replacing freely-timed section into a variable tempo project

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peakae
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Re: TAPE-STYLE VARISPEED

Post by peakae »

Ok you are thinking vocals where the singer can't reach the note ?
If you have an iPhone there are tons of Music calculators than can covert most music related things.
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peakae
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Re: TAPE-STYLE VARISPEED

Post by peakae »

Oh btw, if I had a singer that had a problem getting up there, I would do a mixdown and slow that down tapestyle.
Once finished, speed up again and delete the mixdown track.
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