Earphone Problem (last post I hope)

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Earphone Problem (last post I hope)

Post by Hans Nel » Mon Feb 06, 2017 11:07 am

Hi guys, I have JBL Bluetooth earphones (that connects through the "BlueSoleil" software). I can hear movies, iPad....EVERY sound (even Sibelius) except Dorico. Is there a way I can set Dorico to play sound through my Bluetooth earphones. Pics attached.

Thanks guys, I know you are very busy. I'll try not to bother again, but I can't promise because I have to have a finished project by Friday and I decided to Dorico it! ;)
Hans
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Re: Earphone Problem (last post I hope)

Post by Ulf » Mon Feb 06, 2017 11:26 am

Your Bluetooth device doesn't turn up in the list of available output ports (GLLD panel). Try to untick the option "Allow ASIO host application to take exclusive control of selected port configuration" at the top of the panel and see if it then shows up.
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Re: Earphone Problem (last post I hope)

Post by Hans Nel » Mon Feb 06, 2017 11:29 am

Ulf wrote:Your Bluetooth device doesn't turn up in the list of available output ports (GLLD panel). Try to untick the option "Allow ASIO host application to take exclusive control of selected port configuration" at the top of the panel and see if it then shows up.
Hi Ulf, you are talking about that checkbox right on top of the picture (3.jpg) I assume? I've done that and then those two list boxes at the bottom is empty.
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Re: Earphone Problem (last post I hope)

Post by Ulf » Mon Feb 06, 2017 12:06 pm

Hm, okay, that looks bad then. I've one more suggestion then: Please go to http://www.asio4all.com/ and download/install that driver. It's similar to our Generic Low Latency driver, it is also a generic ASIO driver.
Stop Dorico, install ASIO4all and restart Dorico. Under Edit > Device Setup in the list of drivers then "ASIO4ALL v2" shall turn up. Choose that and open the device control panel and see if your Bluetooth headphone is showing up.
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Re: Earphone Problem (last post I hope)

Post by Hans Nel » Mon Feb 06, 2017 12:33 pm

Ulf wrote:Hm, okay, that looks bad then. I've one more suggestion then: Please go to http://www.asio4all.com/ and download/install that driver. It's similar to our Generic Low Latency driver, it is also a generic ASIO driver.
Stop Dorico, install ASIO4all and restart Dorico. Under Edit > Device Setup in the list of drivers then "ASIO4ALL v2" shall turn up. Choose that and open the device control panel and see if your Bluetooth headphone is showing up.
Ulf, my friend, you're not going to believe me, but I did do that JUST NOW before I received this post. No luck. Pic attached.

The reason the Bluetooth does not show up in ASIO4ALL is because I just removed "BlueSoleil" from my PC. I want to ascertain if Windows 10 does not have it's OWN Bluetooth driver. Perhaps it will work?

I know you're a busy man, but I will let you know. Please, let your work come first.

Best wishes
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Re: Earphone Problem (last post I hope)

Post by Hans Nel » Mon Feb 06, 2017 1:01 pm

Nope. Windows does not recognise my USB Bluetooth device...so when I click om "Turn on Bluetooth"...it remains turned off. Grrrr!!!!

I guess "BlueSoleil" takes exclusive control over the Bluetooth dongle. Still, it works in Sibelius??
Anyway, let me carry on fighting with my system.

Allow me to explain what I want to do. There are times in Sibelius when I don't need sound all the time because I'm editing parts or whatever and watch a movie while doing this tedious work. OR...like I mentioned before, I listen a mp3 to notate.

Problem is, Sibelius (and Dorico) takes exclusive control over the driver so if one plays, the other one stops.
So, I put die videos on my iPad2 and plugged an audio cable from my iPad into the blue port behind my PC (5.1 surround). I believe the blue port is "Line In" and it woks, I can hear my iPad on my Bluetooth Earphones. I run a movie on my PC and can also hear the movie on my BT Earphones...except Dorico is silent! :-(

So the idea is to hear two audio software (Dorico and Media Player Plus) to simultaneously send audio to my Bluetooth Earphones. It works on my Focusrite Solo Earphones, but I would like it if it could work on my BT Earphones.

Ulf, notwithstanding your handsome face, you radiate super intelligence! Is this possible.

OK, but your work must come first.
Greetings
Hans
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Re: Earphone Problem (last post I hope)

Post by Ulf » Mon Feb 06, 2017 2:51 pm

Sure it can be done. I have a BT headset on my MacMini and YouTube and Dorico can play out to it at the same time.
My Win laptop doesn't have BT so I can't try it out there.
In your case, it must have to do with the Blue Soleil driver.
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Re: Earphone Problem (last post I hope)

Post by Hans Nel » Mon Feb 06, 2017 4:50 pm

Ulf wrote:Sure it can be done. I have a BT headset on my MacMini and YouTube and Dorico can play out to it at the same time.
My Win laptop doesn't have BT so I can't try it out there.
In your case, it must have to do with the Blue Soleil driver.
Well my friend, then I guess I'm ready to go 8 rounds with my "so called" 1800 Euro super PC! :evil:

Ulf, what BT driver do you have listed in Dorico for your earphones to work. In other words, what settings do you have selected in the attached picture?

Enjoy your evening with your family. :)
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Re: Earphone Problem (last post I hope)

Post by Ulf » Tue Feb 07, 2017 8:51 am

Hans Nel wrote: Ulf, what BT driver do you have listed in Dorico for your earphones to work. In other words, what settings do you have selected in the attached picture?
As I said, I have it only running on my Mac which has BT built-in. My Win machine doesn't have it.
Mac is completely different in terms of driver model, so asio4all and our Generic Low Latency driver don't work there.
On Mac, device manufacturers provide "Core Audio" compliant drivers and then our CoreAudio2Asio driver does the rest to make it work with Cubase/Dorico.

I really wonder why asio4all doesn't work with your BT phones. Could you please post a screenshot of the asio4all panel?
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Re: Earphone Problem (last post I hope)

Post by Hans Nel » Tue Feb 07, 2017 2:10 pm

Ulf wrote:
Hans Nel wrote: Ulf, what BT driver .....

I really wonder why asio4all doesn't work with your BT phones. Could you please post a screenshot of the asio4all panel?
Hi Ulf, sorry for all the trouble I put you through.

I attached the pic as asked.

I'm just curious as you mentioned that even though your BT Earphones work through your Apple Machine, you can also hear a second source through it...I wonder how?

Like I said...I can hear EVERY audio application except Dorico????
Pic2 is Sibelius' config....

Keep well!
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Re: Earphone Problem (last post I hope)

Post by Ulf » Tue Feb 07, 2017 2:28 pm

Ah, okay, that picture gives me a clue.

So that headphone is actually a headset and has also a microphone built in. So it not only works as an output device but also as an input device. But the microphone is only very low spec and supports only a sample rate of 8kHz, just about enough to make a phone call.

But 8kHz is the problem. Neither Cubase nor Dorico support 8kHz and so will refuse that device, no matter what driver you use.

In the ASIO4all panel, try to disable the mic of your headset.
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Re: Earphone Problem (last post I hope)

Post by Hans Nel » Tue Feb 07, 2017 6:42 pm

Ulf wrote:Ah, okay, that picture gives me a clue.

So that headphone is actually a headset and has also a microphone built in. So it not only works as an output device but also as an input device. But the microphone is only very low spec and supports only a sample rate of 8kHz, just about enough to make a phone call.

But 8kHz is the problem. Neither Cubase nor Dorico support 8kHz and so will refuse that device, no matter what driver you use.

In the ASIO4all panel, try to disable the mic of your headset.
Goodness Ulf, I wished I had your brain! You are incredibly clever and wise.

OK, I unchecked the "IN" checkbox but now there are a darn red X at the "OUT" checkbox. So have no other audio software open that takes control over the ASIO$ALL driver but I guess I'm going to spend some time now in a process of elimination finding the offending program.

It could be a browser, Cortana...I don't know...does iTunes control the audio even when closed? As you can see in the Sibelius picture, BOTH lights are blue...indicating to me nothing is bothering ASIO$ALL in Sibelius' Audio Panel....but what bothers Dorico? MMmmm???

Pic1.jpg - Shows red x
Pic2.jpg - displays some error message

Ulf, IF I may ask you another secret...how do those guys when they make movies create the audio tracks so well that the sound is not in one's face but it sounds "deep" in the screen and one can hear some instsruments in front of others. Does one get a "virtual stage" type plugin or something that expands the sound, It must be quite an art to mix tracks to place instruments in a 3D space. You can PM me.

Anyway my friend, let me go find what is placing that red X in ASIO$ALL while you enjoy your children.

Enjoy your evening and perhaps warm soup.
Hans
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Re: Earphone Problem (last post I hope)

Post by Hans Nel » Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:42 pm

Don't worry about it Ulf. I exited every possible "offending" software in the Task Manger but that darn red X remains. Don't know why Sibelius accepts both check boxes.

I'm going to use my cable earphones....at least it works....but I'll miss the gooooooood sound of my JBL's :-)

Lekker slaap!
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Re: Earphone Problem (last post I hope)

Post by Peter Roos » Wed Feb 08, 2017 3:09 am

Fwiw, if you are using one of those headphones with built-in microphones, that's nice for gaming or skyping with friends and family, but it's not for professional audio ... I'd just get a decent professional headphones, or better yet, studio monitors.

A Sennheiser HD 280 will cost you no more than $100 and gives perfect playback, while being completely isolated from your environment (up to -20dB). It's used in professional studios around the world, for good reasons.

JBL has some really excellent studio monitors, at very competitive prices ... the JBL LSR 305 go for about $250 a pair; the 308s are slightly bigger so they have better bass response. These are active monitors so you'll need a soundcard as well, and XLR cables.

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Re: Earphone Problem (last post I hope)

Post by Ulf » Wed Feb 08, 2017 9:11 am

Hi Hans,

I don't know anymore how to help you further on this at the moment. I will get myself a BlueTooth dongle and try to get my headset going on Win. Will let you know, but it will take some time for the order to arrive.

In regards to the mixing of 3D. Well, sure, audio mixing is an art by itself and needs lots of experience and knowledge. I'm not an audio engineer myself and have little mixing experience. You better ask that question in the Nuendo forum, there are all the sound professionals that do 3D mixing as full time job.

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Re: Earphone Problem (last post I hope)

Post by MarcLarcher » Wed Feb 08, 2017 11:17 am

As a former sound engineer, I can also write that creating stereophonic images is a real topic… It can depend on mixing techniques, using great reverberations, but also on the way the sound is captured. It fills lots of books and demands some experience ! Of course, it also requires that the audience is in good conditions (at least two speakers, 60° angle, and so on…)
This is Dorico's forum, I think we are absolutely off topic here ^^
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Re: Earphone Problem (last post I hope)

Post by Hans Nel » Wed Feb 08, 2017 12:24 pm

MarcLarcher wrote:As a former sound engineer, I can also write that creating stereophonic images is a real topic… It can depend on mixing techniques, using great reverberations, but also on the way the sound is captured. It fills lots of books and demands some experience ! Of course, it also requires that the audience is in good conditions (at least two speakers, 60° angle, and so on…)
This is Dorico's forum, I think we are absolutely off topic here ^^
No, you are totally correct that we are off topic. I was under the impression for a moment that I was PM Ulf.

I have some idea where it involve reverb, early reflections, sound bouncing off "walls" etc. But I really want to learn the art. I mean, why purchase Cubase 9 and cannot get the mockup to sound like it would be in a movie.

I asked Ulf as he is a software designer and thought maybe he knows about some interesting "secret" plugin I can use. :twisted:

Nuendo group...thanks. I'll check it out.

PEACE!!
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Re: Earphone Problem (last post I hope)

Post by Hans Nel » Wed Feb 08, 2017 12:28 pm

Peter Roos wrote:Fwiw, if you are using one of those headphones with built-in microphones, that's nice for gaming or skyping with friends and family, but it's not for professional audio ... I'd just get a decent professional headphones, or better yet, studio monitors.

A Sennheiser HD 280 will cost you no more than $100 and gives perfect playback, while being completely isolated from your environment (up to -20dB). It's used in professional studios around the world, for good reasons.

JBL has some really excellent studio monitors, at very competitive prices ... the JBL LSR 305 go for about $250 a pair; the 308s are slightly bigger so they have better bass response. These are active monitors so you'll need a soundcard as well, and XLR cables.
WOW Peter Roos, THAT is why I want to use my JBL's. Truly, I cannot even find a mic on the thing. But they are Studio earphones...I must just get it to work, like it does in Sibelius. :D
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Re: Earphone Problem (last post I hope)

Post by Peter Roos » Wed Feb 08, 2017 6:17 pm

About the sound scape and 3D, there are two things here:

1. Using headphones -- headphones have a very different stereoscopic images (180 degrees) from studio monitors (which are arranged in a 60 to 90 degree angle to your ears, depending on the setup). The popular wisdom is that you can't properly mix on headphones; but some people like you may not have a choice.

To simulate monitor placement there are software plugins like Redline Monitor by 112dB, or Toneboosters's TB Isone (I believe Waves has something like it as well). Isone is only $20, so that won't break the bank.

2. Depth field - this is more complicated, it's not just panning but also creating the imagine of "distance". As you know in the traditional orchestra not all players are clustered in one spot on the stage - you have the strings up left front (maybe sections split left and right in the 19th century orchestra), DB / celli on the right, woodwinds and brass behind that, percussion in the back. One way to artificially simulate this is to use different reverbs on each of the instruments groups, with different settings for "direct reflections" (giving the strings a closer up image and percussion further away). This requires using 4 to 8 or more different reverbs (maybe with separate reverb for close; some can manually adjust the direct reflections). Direct reflections is the very first you hear coming back from the instrument, before any reverb from the hall.

You can also throw in stereo imagine width to e.g. pinpoint certain instruments (e.g. solo oboe), before verb; while giving a whole section a wider imagine (e.g. all strings). All this is pretty fancy and you can't really set up it properly unless you first deal with 1 (good neutral monitoring setup with proper stereo image).

In the longer run with Dorico's sophisticated audio engine you might be able to do the foregoing as well.

If you're on Facebook / youtube you might want to check out the videos by Brian Ralson, this Saturday he did a demo of the use of reverb in a film score template (I think he's on digital performer but the principle is the same). If you go to the Cubase forum you can perhaps find discussions on that as well; Cubase is pretty popular with film composers (eg Hans Zimmer and the guys at Remote Control).

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Re: Earphone Problem (last post I hope)

Post by Ulf » Thu Feb 09, 2017 12:12 pm

Really interesting guys, but sorry, returning now to the original topic ;-)

Well, my blue tooth adapter arrived really quickly and I have it now running on my Win10 laptop. It installed and works like a charm. Paired with my JBL T450BT immediately and sound comes out as expected.

And yes, Hans, I'm using the Generic Low Latency Driver and I can hear Dorico, Media Player or YouTube at the same time. Only thing, I have to untick that "Allow exclusive control" option. See also attached screenshot.

With the ASIO4all I had less luck. Well, I can hear sound from Dorico, but only exclusively from there. So it seems that driver is not multi-client capable.

But in general I have proven that that what you want is possible. So I blame it on your BlueSoleil.
I have this adapter: http://www.edimax.com/edimax/merchandis ... w-7611ulb/
It only costs around 10 Euro, maybe you should also switch to something else...
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Re: Earphone Problem (last post I hope)

Post by Hans Nel » Mon Feb 13, 2017 1:44 pm

ULF!!!!!

Thank you my friend. I updated to version 1607 OS Build 15031.0

Going to attempt your advice RIGHT NOW!!! :D :ugeek:

I wish I could give your kids a nice gift for your wonderful help so far...but do HUG them BIG TIME for me and say to them that there is an uncle 9.729 Km from your home who wanted you to hug them for him. What a blessing it must be to be a parent!

OK...let's get started!

Greetings!
Hans
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Re: Earphone Problem (last post I hope)

Post by Hans Nel » Mon Feb 13, 2017 1:52 pm

PETER ROOS!!!!!

ALSO THANK YOU!!! You gave me incredible information to get started. I know there are much more, like not only reverbs but also early reflections and proper panning. HUGE SUBJECT!

And YES! I know Hans Zimmer uses Cubase, but the last lime I checked, he is still on version 5...but I'm pretty sure he is up to date by now. BTW, he is offering and online composition course which I REALLY want to do!

The is a VST2 Plug-in "Virtual Sound stage" which I used in Sibelius. It's AMAZING. If you place an instrument on the stage (of which there are many different halls with their settings) and you move the instrument around, you can actually hear the instrument move around on the "stage".....closer, further, left, right etc. It will be GREAT if someone could create a plugin like this for Dorico because I can not get "VSS" to work in Dorico. :(

Anyway, THANKS for your input!!!!
Hans
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Re: Earphone Problem (last post I hope)

Post by Hans Nel » Mon Feb 13, 2017 9:33 pm

Ulf wrote:I have this adapter: http://www.edimax.com/edimax/merchandis ... w-7611ulb/
It only costs around 10 Euro, maybe you should also switch to something else...
ULF! From which planet did you get this thing? Hell, South Africa hardly has any Bluetooth dongles available. They are moving away from it.

That thing looks GOOD and sexy....WOW...I think I must import one!

Hans
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Re: Earphone Problem (last post I hope)

Post by Hans Nel » Mon Feb 13, 2017 10:05 pm

ULF! You GENIUS!

It works!

I deleted BlueSoleil and Windows 10installed it's owm Bluetooth driver...and it supports 5.1 surroumd!

THANK YOU!
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Intel i7 3.60GHz , 16Gig DDR3 Ram,2 X SSD's, Focusrite Scarlett Solo Sound Device (USB), Carbon 49 USB MIDI Controller, 64bit OS (Windows 10) - Dorico 1.2, Sibelius 8.4, StaffPad, Notion 5, Finale 2011, Encore, MuseScore 2, Cubase Elements 9, Studio One 3, Sonar X3, EWQLSO Platinum, EWQL S. Choirs, QL Spaces, NotePerformer V2.0.2 & EDIROL Orchestra.

Hans Nel
Member
Posts: 271
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2016 1:29 pm
Location: Cape Town, South Africa
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Re: Earphone Problem (last post I hope)

Post by Hans Nel » Tue Feb 14, 2017 8:10 am

ULF! Good morning my Hamburg friend. Kids at school? Enjoying nice cup of coffee at your desk while reading in the newspaper what Britain's issue is regarding the Brexit issue? ;) OR are you basking in my effusive statement I made last night regarding your very well MISUNDERSTOOD post you made to me yesterday. Allow me to explain...

Yes, of course you are a genius (damn I wish I had 1/100th of your knowledge), but the point is I misunderstood you. With my very thick red swollen tired eyes (on my way to reboot my brain), I per chance saw your new post and read it wrongly. I took your advice to: uninstall "BlueSoleil" as Windows (latest built) included a new Bluetooth driver that connects multiple devices. So, while I started to power down in hibernation mode, I uninstalled "BlueSoleil" and rebooted (my PC :) in order to get rid of that icon that resides in that hidden part near the clock on my Taskbar). New problem...I just updated to Build 1503.0 that afternoon and there is a bug. Clicking on "Settings" SOMETIMES does not open settings....so I headed to the old "Control Panel" and headed over to "Devices and Printers". I clicked on "New Devices" and Lo and behold, Windows 10 picked up my ïPad's Physical Keyboard" AND JBL's!. THAT is why I thanked you and elevated your status to genius (don't worry, it still is! :) ). I noticed in Pic1.jpg and Pic2.jpg that Windows 10 has a (propably "friendly name - Windows Sonic for Earphones" driver installed with 5.1 (surround) capability)...and then I powered my brain down very happy! BUT...

AFTER my rebooted brain activated out of hibernation mode this morning (my brain...4 bit BBC micro...well rather Commodore 64)...

I noticed you wrote:
"....Well, my blue tooth adapter arrived really quickly and I have it now running on my Win10 laptop..."

So, THAT is the story....you purchased that 10 Euro (amazingly beautiful device by the why) Bluetooth/WiFi device and THAT is what enabled you to multi-connect the various devices. OK, my CPU needs an upgrade. Problem is:

I live in South Africa and THIS (Pic 3.jpg) is ALL I can find in our HIGHLY ADVANCED AND UPDATED computer shops!! I was told that (by a VERY young little genius "just left high school" international hacker type sales boy) that the "world is doing away with Bluetooth dongles as Bluetooth are now being built standard on computer motherboards!") Now...how can this BBC Micro argue with this I7 8Core 17 year old brain standing in front of me. So I thank him feeling stupid and purchased this HIGHLY wonderful dongle (Pic3.jpg) and sit with this problem you and I are discussing!

BUT, actually that little boy does not realise that I grew up with computers since NASA built that huge 1 bit computer that prevented Armstrong to land the LEM at the correct place. I started on the Atari to ZX81 to ZX Spectrum to BBC Micro (started Basic programming and little machine code (WAY too difficult for me) to BBC Amiga to IBM 386 Windows 3.1 (started programming Visual Basic (WOW Windows Programming at last)....and my brain got an upgrade to i20 20 core by 2017!! (With your teaching and doctrines) So that little boy in the shop did not fool me with his "clever" rhetoric thinking he just BS'es a 50yo man who (HE accessed) probably hardly knows how to use a Note 4 Mobile Phone (These kids guys like us purchase the expensive phone but are only able to text and make a phone call...tttt!). But I knew arguing with HIS 1975 Atari Brain is going to be useless and I knew I would make use of the esoteric part of the way we colonials (no racism intended!...it's just that our locals are happy with local stock and cheap "short lasting" stuff from China and Pakistani's) do here and order the device YOU posted from a 1st World Country. 10 Euro...I should manage that...about 141 ZAR. :ugeek: :ugeek:

OK, OK back to the point. So this morning I heard my iPad through my JBL's and (while connected to the iPad), I tried to connect to my PC and guess what...it won't connect! My i20 brain told me that OBVIOUSLY it's because it is still connected to the iPad and cannot connect to Wondow 10 as well. So I thought ULF! what did I miss in your instructions....and THAT is where my brain temporarily (I might say) had some Atari flash backs!

I noticed (this morning over coffee) that you purchased that device that enabled you to do the connection, so...in short (Yeah right)...I am going to order that thing as well. Sorry for misunderstanding and that (as usual) for your i10000 brain advice!

UPDATE: Yeah, I just noticed in Dorico that my JBL's does NOT appear in the list as in yours. :(

Now isn't THIS post a better read than Brexit politics? :D

Blessings from the inferno southern hemisphere!
Hans Nel

PS. As you probably know, I am a Warrant Officer Class 2 in the South African Navy Band as well and the Navy Band is currently in England to attend a memorial services whereby one of our WW1 troopships collided with an Argentinian cargo ship that was speeding to avoid your U-Boats! ;) I was the unfortunate one to stay behind as I am in the "Publishing (Arranging/Composition) Dept.). Well, maybe THAT will be in the news and NOT Brexit! :D
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_________________________________________________________________________________________________
Intel i7 3.60GHz , 16Gig DDR3 Ram,2 X SSD's, Focusrite Scarlett Solo Sound Device (USB), Carbon 49 USB MIDI Controller, 64bit OS (Windows 10) - Dorico 1.2, Sibelius 8.4, StaffPad, Notion 5, Finale 2011, Encore, MuseScore 2, Cubase Elements 9, Studio One 3, Sonar X3, EWQLSO Platinum, EWQL S. Choirs, QL Spaces, NotePerformer V2.0.2 & EDIROL Orchestra.

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