Can Halion 4 do that?-Sample legato

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Bach
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Can Halion 4 do that?-Sample legato

Post by Bach » Mon Aug 08, 2011 1:25 am

I am wondering if Halion 4 can perform "legato" in samples.

Let me explain:

You have imported an audio file of a vocal singing the line: "Seven People"(just came to mind by the way, I want something with distinctive syllables).

Imagine that the singer has recorded this line singing one note only one every syllable, so for example all the line is sung in C3.

What I would like Halion 4 to do is if I play this note on the keyboard and I hit C3, it will start playing the sample as is, however:
If I change the pitch by hitting D3 on the keyboard for example from syllable Se- to -ven I want the phrase to continue from where it left but the pitch to change.
So I don't want a new phrase to be triggered again from the beginning for each new note I play, but I want each new note I play to change the pitch and play smoothly from where the last note left.

So for example this would make it possible to make a vocal line sang in one note only to be played as if it was recorded with any given pitch you choose until the sample reaches the end.

I don't know if you get what I mean, it is a simple concept actually, but this would be very interesting if Halion 4 was able to do it.

So, anyone knows a way to do that?

Thanks!
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Nico
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Re: Can Halion 4 do that?-Sample legato

Post by Nico » Mon Aug 08, 2011 3:33 pm

Hi,
yes this is possible in HALion 4. You have to adjust a few setting though.

- Import the sample and adjust sound and sample settings to your liking
- In the parent folder, activate the voice manager and enable "Mono" and (if you want the sample to continue as long as it has not finished and keys are held) "Retrigger".
- Set the Trigger Mode in the Voice Management section of the layer to "Legato".
- In the Zone Editor, adjust the Glide Settings under the Voice Control section (Unison/Glide Tab).

This only works for keys that spread across the same sample zone though. If you switch to another sample while playing, the new sample is played from the beginning.

Hope this helps - Cheers, Nico

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Re: Can Halion 4 do that?-Sample legato

Post by dorremifasol » Mon Aug 08, 2011 9:50 pm

Nico wrote:This only works for keys that spread across the same sample zone though. If you switch to another sample while playing, the new sample is played from the beginning.
This is something I really don't like about Halion 4. :(

New sample zones should only be triggered if a new non legato note is triggered.
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Bach
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Re: Can Halion 4 do that?-Sample legato

Post by Bach » Tue Aug 09, 2011 12:30 am

Hello and thank you for the reply.

Yes, I also hoped for something better. I mean, if I have multisampled a vocal phrase playing in different pitches I could have Halion play the phrase the way I wanted to without artifacts.

For example, if I have recorded a the phrase over a fifth(e.g. C to G) and I played a C and then a G, then if the G sample is not played back the pitch shifted C would sound like the Smurf invasion. :P

I would hope there was a way to do this. Or is the pitch shift algorithm so good in Halion 4? If this is the case this would be forgiven.
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Re: Can Halion 4 do that?-Sample legato

Post by Nico » Tue Aug 09, 2011 8:32 am

Ok, thanks for your input - just to make sure that we are on the right track... Playing in Legato Mode, you do not want to start a sample from the beginning when the key you play triggers a new sample that is not related to your previous key?

Hmmm. If you want to do that you are facing multiple difficulties. For example in your singing example, the tempo of your takes will hardly be exactly the same - so even if you are crossfading between the old keys and the new keys sample, you will probably have some delay like artifacts (you could probably do an instant switch in-between words...).
In addition to that, you would have to have the whole samples across your keyboard in ram because you can not rely on preload if a sample can start at an arbitrary position due to Legato (this is possible of course but your memory consumption will be pretty high).

And there is not a lot you can do if the samples are not even related in content (e.g. the first sample is "Seven People" while the second sample is "Nine Cats"). Then you would have to rely on some sort of matching algorithm that tries to find a best fit for the cross fade position. Again - this is doable but I'd be surprised if you'd end up with what you expected when an algorithm tries to find a good legato crossfade location in real time.

Anyway - If you really need that behavior or just want to try out how it would sound... HALion 4 can offer that. You can apply a small work around to achieve what you want. To do that, layer your samples on the same key range (e.g. C3-F3) but in different velocities (e.g. the C3 sample from velocity 0-31, D3 sample from 32-63, E3 sample from 64-95 and F3 sample from 96 to 127).

Now in the Layer Editor find the Trigger section and enable the Individual Velocity Mode and the Velocity Fade. Set the Velocity Mode to Continuous and select a controller for velocity control (for simplicities sake, chose the modulation controller).

Now if you trigger a sample in the range C3-F3, all four samples are triggered but you will only hear the sample that is selected by your modulation wheel (e.g. if your mod wheel controller is set to 58, you will heard a D3 because the D3 sample was set to velocity range 32-63 (58 > 32 & 58 < 63) and key range C3-F3.

The Velocity Mode feature is originally meant to simulate dynamics in instruments (e.g. play realistic crescendos by changing the velocity after the note has been triggered) but you should be able to recreate what you are looking for by hijacking this feature. Note though, that all comes at a cost - the samples that are layered on the same key range have to play synchronously to allow switching between them in real time, so you will have some voices wasted.

In addition to that, you will be limited to playing with a controller instead of playing on the keys but maybe you can produce a nice example on what you would like to achieve.

Please - if you like, play with this feature and tell me if you can get the sound you want out of it.

Cheers, Nico

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Re: Can Halion 4 do that?-Sample legato

Post by novaburst » Fri Aug 12, 2011 9:07 pm

legato and one shots,

here is a one shot sample, " i love you baby " .... ok that sample was triggerd with any key but for simplicity sake lets just say C3 on the key board.

ok here is how the legato should do it with same sample, C = i...... D = love...... E = you...... F = baby

you must not take your finger off the notes when you are playing it just get the time keeping right and it will
sound like the sample was recorded with all 4 notes,

If you take your finger off the first note it will trigger the sample to start from the biggining,

Also if this is a true legato only the pitch should change like your real voice going up and down the scale and not the speed of the sample , you should be able to do this any where on the key board.


I dont believe H4 has this feature, maybe in a future update




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Bach
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Re: Can Halion 4 do that?-Sample legato

Post by Bach » Sat Aug 13, 2011 6:47 pm

novaburst wrote:legato and one shots,

here is a one shot sample, " i love you baby " .... ok that sample was triggerd with any key but for simplicity sake lets just say C3 on the key board.

ok here is how the legato should do it with same sample, C = i...... D = love...... E = you...... F = baby

you must not take your finger off the notes when you are playing it just get the time keeping right and it will
sound like the sample was recorded with all 4 notes,

If you take your finger off the first note it will trigger the sample to start from the biggining,

Also if this is a true legato only the pitch should change like your real voice going up and down the scale and not the speed of the sample , you should be able to do this any where on the key board.


I dont believe H4 has this feature, maybe in a future update




novaburst
That's what I am trying to say.

If this was a true legato then the timing should also be retained. Because if you play the "you" word on A3 for example the duration of the word will be shorter than if you played it on C3.

That's why I aksed if Halion 4 has a good pitchshift/timestretching algorithm (Variaudio-like quality) so that these problems could be solved with a compromise.
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Re: Can Halion 4 do that?-Sample legato

Post by Cantankerous » Sun Aug 14, 2011 2:38 am

Unfortunately no, Halion 4 does not contain such features. I run into the same problems with one hits. I have a bunch of stabs, sound FX etc that if I play lower on the keyboard are longer in length and higher on the keyboard are shorter in length and it shouldn't be like that. I really hope this becomes available in a future update as for a sampler this is a serious feature to be lacking.

I have some samples that contain modulation, LFO's etc and I would like to retain the timing of the effect while only altering the pitch at which the sample is played back and that does not happen. Playing the sample higher has the modulation sped up, and lower, slowed down. This is a cool thing on its own if that is what you are after, but if you don't, it can be a real deal breaker. This should be an option. The user has the choice to retain the timing while adjusting the pitch, or adjust the pitch while retaining the timing.
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Will Luongo
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Re: Can Halion 4 do that?-Sample legato

Post by Will Luongo » Sat Nov 26, 2011 6:03 pm

Just stumbled across this thread while researching another issue, but I thought I'd drop in and point out that Halion 4.5 does support pitch shifting with formants.

http://www.steinberg.net/en/support/dow ... ion_4.html

Hope this helps!

Will

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