VCA automation changing deliberately

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girts
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VCA automation changing deliberately

Post by girts » Mon Aug 28, 2017 6:20 pm

Hi all!

Due to suggestion of some GS colleague, I'll re-post my experience with Nuendo's VCA faders.

Few days ago I made a mix for film using Nuendo's VCA's. I spent a whole day and exported the 5.1 upmix. The next day, when I re-opened that project to adapt the DX to other language, I realized, that all the VCA balance I carefully made is suddenly changed!!

The audio tracks seem to be still assigned to VCA faders in the way I did it, the automation I wrote on VCA channels appears to be there, "read" is on, but the balance I made between VCA groups (stems assigned to VCA faders) is gone - and that just by re-opening the Nuendo project!

This happened on Nuendo 7.1.35 in 64bit Windows 7 Pro environment.

I was totally confused, rather shocked and decided to do an experiment. The description follows:

I made a Nuendo project from "zero", at 48kHz 24bit by adding one Audio track, putting a plugin with a plain sine Test tone coming out of it and assigning a VCA channel to that Audio channel as shown in the picture.

Image

Accordingly I made a very simple automation on VCA, containing two values and monitored the outcome, using Nuendo's Loudness meter reading LUFS.

Here are the results:

1) Two "steps" on VCA automation resulted in following two values:
-23dB LUFS and -20,1dB LUFS. I save that project and exit Nuendo.

2) I restart Nuendo and open the project i just saved. I check the loudness of my previously saved automation steps. I did nothing, but now the values have changed: -20,1dB LUFS and -17,1dB LUFS. I exit the project and quit Nuendo.

3) I restart Nuendo again and open that project again. I check the situation just as I did previously. Voila. Everything has changed again! Now the meter reads -14,1dB LUFS and 11,1dB LUFS!!

I'm more than confused. The VCA changes the output just deliberately! How is that possible?!
Needless to say, I was forced to get rid of all the VCA automation I made - and I did it first time on Nuendo - and redo the mix by using Groups.

Any clue guys? Can anyone using the same version / system reproduce this bug? An input from Steinberg would be appreciated.

thanks!

Girts

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Re: VCA automation changing deliberately

Post by Tumppi Järnefelt » Sun Sep 03, 2017 10:02 am

I have had similar experience using vcas. Too bad but that scared me so much that I don't use vcas anymore.
I have tried vcas in Nuendo only once. Was roo scared to try them again...
I really hate this.
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Re: VCA automation changing deliberately

Post by girts » Sun Sep 03, 2017 1:55 pm

Hi Tumppi,

glad to hear I'm not the only one who hates this BUG!

In fact, Reconform and VCA's was two general reasons I upgraded to V7. Now the VCA's appear to be useless at all.

Are you running Nuendo on Windows 10? Which V7 subversion are you using?

I'll try to re-post this issue on N8 forum.

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Re: VCA automation changing deliberately

Post by Tumppi Järnefelt » Sun Sep 03, 2017 2:33 pm

Have tried vcas only on win10...
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Re: VCA automation changing deliberately

Post by girts » Sun Sep 03, 2017 2:55 pm

It means, this problem isn't related to a particular Operation system, as far as I can estimate.

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Re: VCA automation changing deliberately

Post by MattiasNYC » Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:00 pm

Ok, I now tested this on a newly updated Nuendo 7.1.35 on a Win 10 machine, and I'm not able to reproduce the error. I tried closing / reopening the session as well as quitting Nuendo and restarting it. It always works as expected.

I'll try it on a Windows 7 machine later in the week if I get the time. But for now I'm not so sure this is a confirmed bug.
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Re: VCA automation changing deliberately

Post by girts » Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:25 pm

Thanks for your time Mattias. Well, what to say... Confusing. No idea, how to fix it.

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Re: VCA automation changing deliberately

Post by MattiasNYC » Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:10 am

When you've done this, have you started from scratch always? If you based your job and tests on templates those could have been corrupted. I've had that happen during upgrades.

Worst case scenario I would try to uninstall/reinstall the entire app.
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Re: VCA automation changing deliberately

Post by girts » Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:20 am

Well, the Test I described above I made from scratch, creating an empty project in Nuendo 7.

Does a "whole" installation of, say, 7.1.35 exists at all?
Or by reinstalling, one needs to start with some early "base" verion of 7.x and then add the update patches until it reaches the last version?

Is there an option to gain the access to any kind of Steniberg ftp, to download any desired version of Nuendo?

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Re: VCA automation changing deliberately

Post by fuzzydude » Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:00 pm

You can get the complete download from your mysteinberg account no need for ftp. When you click on the link it says 'update' but its the whole thing. Well at least it was when I last didi it
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Re: VCA automation changing deliberately

Post by girts » Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:04 pm

Thanks for the tip! I'll try it.

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Re: VCA automation changing deliberately

Post by Thorsten Marx » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:37 pm

Hello,
I confirm there is a problem like Girts described when the VCA reads automation but the associated channels do not have automation at all. The channels may be initialized with an offset in such case. To prevent this, the connected channels should at least have initial points.
We'll address this as soon as possible. Thanks for reporting.

Best regards,
Thorsten
Thorsten Marx, Product Planning Manager Pro Audio
Steinberg Media Technologies GmbH
Hamburg, Germany

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Re: VCA automation changing deliberately

Post by girts » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:44 pm

I appreciate your input Thorsten and thanks for the clue!

best

Girts

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Re: VCA automation changing deliberately

Post by MattiasNYC » Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:42 pm

Very disappointing.
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Re: VCA automation changing deliberately

Post by Tajika » Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:59 am

Hi
I experience the same problem. Also there is a problem with VCA automation when switching on/off the tempo track or when doing changes to the tempo track.

Repro:
1. Create new project
2. Create some audio/instrument tracks, put audio/midi data on the tracks
3. Assign the tracks to an VCA fader
4. Write automation with the VCA fader
5. Switch on the tempo track

=> The tracks assigned to the VCA fader jump to max volume.

I did a short video which documents the problem: https://youtu.be/T8z1JFRx3pY
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Re: VCA automation changing deliberately

Post by girts » Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:05 am

Hi Tajika. Which version of Nuendo do you have?

Girts

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Re: VCA automation changing deliberately

Post by Tajika » Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:47 pm

Hi Girts

I'm on version 8 but I checked with version 7.1 as well and the problem occurs there as well.
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Re: VCA automation changing deliberately

Post by MattiasNYC » Mon Sep 18, 2017 3:50 pm

Can't reproduce on Nuendo 7.1.30 / Win7 x64
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Re: VCA automation changing deliberately

Post by Barry Berk » Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:34 am

Hi Thorsten. Thanks for the heads up. I'm experiencing this problem in Cubase. When you say that the associated channels must at least at have initial points what do you mean? I'm not entirely clear. Thanks.

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Re: VCA automation changing deliberately

Post by MattiasNYC » Tue Sep 19, 2017 3:05 pm

Barry, Cubase and Nuendo uses fundamentally different implementations of VCA functionality. I would think it is better to ask about it in the Cubase section.
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Re: VCA automation changing deliberately

Post by Blauert » Thu Oct 12, 2017 6:57 pm

I have the same problem. 7.1.35 on a Mac.
Doing starting points for 500+ tracks and remixing 12 hours of a really big movie project within strong deadline - is not funny at all.
Have no ideas what to do.
But are initial values on all parameters controlled by VCA is the solution?
P.S. Great but practically unusable features like Version Tracks (playlists), Virgin territories and now VCA - so sad to imagine what a great program Nuendo could be.
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Re: VCA automation changing deliberately

Post by fenderchris » Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:24 am

I don't even bother with VCA's. The whole thing has been a hugely frustrating waste of time and money.

I'm just using Groups.
Chris

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Re: VCA automation changing deliberately

Post by MattiasNYC » Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:53 pm

Blauert wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 6:57 pm
I have the same problem. 7.1.35 on a Mac.
It's weird that I didn't run into the issue at some point, even when testing. I wonder if it's a mac/pc issue?
Blauert wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 6:57 pm
Doing starting points for 500+ tracks and remixing 12 hours of a really big movie project within strong deadline - is not funny at all.
Have no ideas what to do.
But are initial values on all parameters controlled by VCA is the solution?
If you already have projects with automation done on them the only thing I can think of is to link the the tracks and do one automation edit instead of several.I suppose you don't even have to open automation lanes, just enable automation write and do a quick write at the top of the project and that should write to all tracks linked (?).

For all my work I have templates and I took the time to set my tracks up with automation points at the top.
Blauert wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 6:57 pm
P.S. Great but practically unusable features like Version Tracks (playlists), Virgin territories and now VCA - so sad to imagine what a great program Nuendo could be.
I personally find playlists useful, but I don't use them the way most people do probably. I "underuse" them. But yeah, VCAs and Virgin Territory not working properly sucks.
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Re: VCA automation changing deliberately

Post by MattiasNYC » Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:55 pm

fenderchris wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:24 am
I don't even bother with VCA's. The whole thing has been a hugely frustrating waste of time and money.

I'm just using Groups.
Unfortunately groups don't do what VCAs do, so they're really no substitute...
Nuendo 7.1.4 / Lynx TWO-B / Windows 10 Pro 64-bit / Ryzen 1700 3.7GHz (oc) / 16GB Corsair Vengeance DDR4@3200MHz / Nvidia GTX 660 / ASUS x370-A mobo/ 500GB WD Blue system drive / Crucial BX100 250GB SSD media / spinners for library/backup ::::: iZotope RX / Phoenixverb Surround / DaVinci Resolve / Faderport / Applied Acoustics UltraAnalog / my pet pony Frank

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Re: VCA automation changing deliberately

Post by fenderchris » Fri Oct 13, 2017 3:29 pm

MattiasNYC wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:55 pm
fenderchris wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:24 am
I don't even bother with VCA's. The whole thing has been a hugely frustrating waste of time and money.

I'm just using Groups.
Unfortunately groups don't do what VCAs do, so they're really no substitute...
Yes, I know that, but it works for me. I lived without VCAs for years so I think I can live without them now, even though I paid for them. If the system were to be proven to be bullet proof it might be a different matter, but even after all this time the system still appears to be flakey.
Chris

The Archers - give it a rest already!

Windows-10 Pro 64-bit v.1903.

PC: i7 Quad core 2.66GHz, 24GB ram.
Screens: LG 4K 3440x1440, AG-Neovo 1280x1024 (x2).

Hardware: RME FireFace UFX, MR816CSX (x2), SmartAV Tango-1 + 12-fader expansion, MOTU Midi Express 128, UAD-2 Quad, Lexicon PCM-91, Lexicon MPX-550, TC-Fireworx, Roland V-Drums TD-20X, Nektar Panorama P1.

Software: Nuendo-7.1.40, Nuendo-8.1.10, Nuendo-10 Trial, Wavelab-Elements-9.5, Halion-5, Halion Sonic 2, Kontakt-5, Cubase iCPro for iPhone and Android (killed by its parents at birth), Omnisphere, Trillian.

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