Tuplet signpost behaviour

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Beechside
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Tuplet signpost behaviour

Post by Beechside » Tue Aug 29, 2017 4:00 pm

I'm getting unexpected behaviour when hiding tuplet signposts. Here goes:

I created a bar full of 3:2 quaver tuplets
I removed both bracket and number from all tuplets
Signposts appear to indicate presence of hidden tuplets
I used View > SIgnposts > Tuplets to hide the signposts
I copied a bar of tuplets
I pasted to an empty bar
Dorico inserted as 1:1 quavers, not 3:2, overflowing into the next bar

It seems that "hiding" the signposts seems to cause Dorico to lose the fact that the copied bar contains tuplets.

So, are signposts informative or do they contain metadata? I would have hoped that they were informative, i.e. as reminders. For example, when I show the Signposts once more, Dorico remembers that the bars contain tuplets, displays the Signposts correctly and I can now copy and paste as expected.
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StefanF at Steinberg
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Re: Tuplet signpost behaviour

Post by StefanF at Steinberg » Tue Aug 29, 2017 4:10 pm

Signposts are effectively handles for events that are hidden. If you hide the signposts, then you can't select the tuplets, resulting exactly in what you are seeing.

dbudde
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Re: Tuplet signpost behaviour

Post by dbudde » Tue Aug 29, 2017 4:13 pm

Putting in a vote that it would be useful if hidden items are included in a whole bar selection.

StefanF at Steinberg
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Re: Tuplet signpost behaviour

Post by StefanF at Steinberg » Tue Aug 29, 2017 4:16 pm

What if the tuplet spans a bar though? What about open time signature? I can't see how we could get consistent and predictable behaviour here, only losing editing flexibility.

dbudde
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Re: Tuplet signpost behaviour

Post by dbudde » Tue Aug 29, 2017 4:21 pm

Whatever selection rules hold for when the signpost is visible should apply.

StefanF at Steinberg
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Re: Tuplet signpost behaviour

Post by StefanF at Steinberg » Tue Aug 29, 2017 4:37 pm

We had this discussion before, and decided to not change current behaviour. Generally, copying things that aren't visible is potentially just as confusing, and would have to extend to other hidden items like time signatures too. What you are suggesting would also mean, that selecting via marquee selection would copy differently to selecting via bar selection (clicking on an empty space in the bar).

It's not impossible we'll review that again at some point in the future, but this is unlikely to happen for the next update.

dbudde
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Re: Tuplet signpost behaviour

Post by dbudde » Tue Aug 29, 2017 4:56 pm

As an alternative, how about making a second view of visible signposts. Like for instance, a vertical line with just a selection rectangle. That would be far less intrusive and I’d never hide them.

Also, while we’re on this topic, please make signposts for tuplets the same color as the voice.

Beechside
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Re: Tuplet signpost behaviour

Post by Beechside » Tue Aug 29, 2017 5:05 pm

Thank you, Stefan. I understand your argument, even if I don't agree with it ;o)

I'd like to echo dbudde's request. The thing is that people using scoring software are generally highly literate and know what we're doing. If I have created a passage and, as part of a recapitulation or similar, want to copy the music that I wrote, then there is no confusion in my mind.

I would have thought that the 80/20 rule should be applied here. (At least) 80% of the occasions when doing this, we would know exactly what is in that bar. This applies to tuplet brackets/numbers just as much as it does to other musical items such as tempi, dynamics and chord symbols. It would not, of course, apply to formatting such as system break and frame break, since they are non-musical data.

Passages with long sections of tuplets will, by convention, hide both bracket and number after the first bar or two. To have multiple, repeated Signposts is a nuisance, since they steal editing space and interfere with tempo marks, playing techniques, rehearsal marks etc. Hence wanting to hide them.

A potential solution?

This might be fixed with a "Paste Special" type function, much as spreadsheets have. Selecting "Paste Special" might then bring up an options box where I can select what I want to paste. It needs some thought but I'll be happy to put my mind to it, should you want input.
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Derrek
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Re: Tuplet signpost behaviour

Post by Derrek » Tue Aug 29, 2017 6:26 pm

Perhaps a Filter Setting to "include hidden signposts" could be useful for this situation.
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Rob Tuley
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Re: Tuplet signpost behaviour

Post by Rob Tuley » Tue Aug 29, 2017 8:06 pm

You can hide different categories of signposts using the View > Signposts menu.

If you are working on unmeasured music with long bars (or no barlines at all) I might disagree that it is "obvious" that you would always remember "exactly what was in each bar" - especially if you come back to the score after a few months doing something else! If you hide the signposts, you can get them back when you need them. If you deleted them, they are gone for ever.

The same is true for "creative" uses of hidden tuplets to fake polyrhythms, note positions for aleatoric passages, etc - it's easy to forget exactly how you did it the first time, if you need to come back to the score after a long break.

Beechside
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Re: Tuplet signpost behaviour

Post by Beechside » Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:22 pm

@Rob Tuley: I can't disagree with anything you said. Not sure where you got the "obvious" quote, though...

However, I still believe that the current implementation is sub-optimal, particularly for the very high percentage of scores that employ conventional meter. I can only recall a handful of my students out of hundreds at University who worked with free meter. Design is a compromise between the fullest function and the broadest use.

I'm not proposing that anyone be penalised, rather that there should be a better solution. Cleverer people than I am will think of something, I'm sure, but the principle of being flexible at the point of pasting seems a good idea to me.

Dorico: Do you want to paste all the hidden items?
Me: Yes, please.
You: No, thank you.

Logic Pro has a similar approach to copying/moving regions. It asks whether you want to copy the region-based automation. There's also a preference to give a permanent answer to that question.

Seems fair enough :)
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Rob Tuley
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Re: Tuplet signpost behaviour

Post by Rob Tuley » Wed Aug 30, 2017 12:38 am

You wrote "The thing is that people using scoring software are generally highly literate and know what we're doing. If I have created a passage and, as part of a recapitulation or similar, want to copy the music that I wrote, then there is no confusion in my mind."

"Obvious" seemed like a fair one-word summary of that, to me. Sorry if you intended some other meaning.

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