reset staff spacing

Discussions about our next-generation scoring application, Dorico.
Post Reply
mdedwards
Junior Member
Posts: 54
Joined: Fri Apr 07, 2017 4:18 pm
Contact:

reset staff spacing

Post by mdedwards » Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:11 am

Hello all, been searching the forum and fiddling with options but can't find a solution to my problem with a solo violin score: I had staff spacing perfectly adjusted (to my taste) in a version of my score in 1.0.30 but upon opening in 1.1 (or now 1.1.1) spacing has been compressed or stretched so that sometimes there is too much room and other times lots of items are overlapping. Of course I could manually shift every stave but is there something else I can do to automatically lay out the whole score again so that there's no overlapping items and space is optimised on the page?

Best, Michael

LSalgueiro
Member
Posts: 980
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 12:51 am
Contact:

Re: reset staff spacing

Post by LSalgueiro » Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:53 am

Every node that has been subjected to manual adjustment will be shown in red, when in Staff Spacing mode. You can just select those nodes (all of them, really) and hit Backspace to reset their values.

mdedwards
Junior Member
Posts: 54
Joined: Fri Apr 07, 2017 4:18 pm
Contact:

Re: reset staff spacing

Post by mdedwards » Wed Sep 06, 2017 1:01 pm

I don't have any red nodes :/

fkretlow
Member
Posts: 762
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 10:10 am
Location: Detmold, Germany
Contact:

Re: reset staff spacing

Post by fkretlow » Wed Sep 06, 2017 1:47 pm

You could force Dorico to cast off everything again by (temporarily) changing the staff size in layout options.
If you adjusted the staff spacing manually before but don't see any red nodes now, then something must have gone wrong.
Florian

mdedwards
Junior Member
Posts: 54
Joined: Fri Apr 07, 2017 4:18 pm
Contact:

Re: reset staff spacing

Post by mdedwards » Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:19 pm

good idea but changing it then changing it back resulted in the same problem :/

User avatar
Daniel at Steinberg
Moderator
Posts: 14796
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2012 10:35 am
Contact:

Re: reset staff spacing

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:20 pm

I'd be interested to see the project prior to any fixes you decide to make, so I can see if there's any obvious reason for the big change in how it looks? I expect it will be due to the changes made in 1.1, and the project was last saved in 1.0.30.

User avatar
MarcLarcher
Grand Senior Member
Posts: 3398
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2016 9:38 am
Location: France
Contact:

Re: reset staff spacing

Post by MarcLarcher » Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:20 pm

It is not the default behavior in Dorico to have items overlapping. This cannot happen unless you manually tweak the casting off (by inserting frame or system breaks, for instance). You should notice that, deleting all these breaks, Dorico will cast off your music accordingly to the very precise rules it has inside, and you can change some of those rules changing the layout options (cmd or ctrl shift L) — for instance the space between staves or systems. Since you don't have red nodes (in Engrave mode, with staff spacing enabled) you won't have to reset those.
I think the right workflow with Dorico (as with any document editor actually) is to input your music, and once it is done, you deal with the engraving part. And you start with choosing your paper size, the margins, then the staff size, then the minimal space between systems…
Once this is all done, if you find you still need to move things around, then you can use system breaks and frame breaks. And if it still is not exactly what you want, then you move staves with the right option enabled in Engrave mode. And you can also tweak the note spacing if needed.
As Daniel explained in an interview (I think it was for Clarineet, in december), the Dorico devs have been inspired by Adobe's Lightroom, where the workflow is clearly explained in the design of the app : start to work on you pictures with the functions on the top of the list, and go down the list following your needs.
OS X 10.14.6, macbook pro retina Late 2013
Opera singer (lyric tenor), photographer, sound engineer, XeLaTeX user and music engraver (Dorico Pro 3.0.10, and Photoscore Ultimate 9.0.2)
French is my native language

User avatar
pianoleo
Grand Senior Member
Posts: 6346
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 11:17 am
Location: London, UK
Contact:

Re: reset staff spacing

Post by pianoleo » Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:32 pm

Michael, note that Marc and Daniel posted at roughly the same time. Marc wasn't to know that changes were made in 1.1 that retroactively change things that were fine in 1.0.30.

Marc, you may want to rescind some or all of your message :)
Pianist/accompanist/engraver/arranger
2019 Macbook Pro 16" 2.3gGHz 8-core i9, 32GB RAM,
2015 Macbook Pro 13" Retina 3.1GHz dual-core i7, 8GB RAM; running Sibelius Ultimate, Logic Pro X, Dorico 3 etc.
& 2017 HP ZBook Studio G3 15.6” UHD quad-i7, 16GB RAM, Windows 10 Pro
Sibelius user since Sibelius 7 (Acorn, 1997), Ex-Sibelius user since Dorico 1.0

mdedwards
Junior Member
Posts: 54
Joined: Fri Apr 07, 2017 4:18 pm
Contact:

Re: reset staff spacing

Post by mdedwards » Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:35 pm

Thanks Daniel and everyone else. Daniel: I'll send you the score by email. Cheers, Michael

User avatar
MarcLarcher
Grand Senior Member
Posts: 3398
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2016 9:38 am
Location: France
Contact:

Re: reset staff spacing

Post by MarcLarcher » Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:40 pm

Dear Pianoleo,

Indeed, my answer and Daniel's were posted in the same minute ^^
I might not have answered accurately to the problem Michael is facing, yet I do not think I made mistakes in my answer. It could help any new Dorico user to get familiar with a consistent workflow, don't you think ?
OS X 10.14.6, macbook pro retina Late 2013
Opera singer (lyric tenor), photographer, sound engineer, XeLaTeX user and music engraver (Dorico Pro 3.0.10, and Photoscore Ultimate 9.0.2)
French is my native language

User avatar
pianoleo
Grand Senior Member
Posts: 6346
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 11:17 am
Location: London, UK
Contact:

Re: reset staff spacing

Post by pianoleo » Wed Sep 06, 2017 6:08 pm

Marc, I agree, but it doesn't make apply to the problem seen here. The problem seen here is that someone's made something look lovely in 1.0.30, and then they've opened it in 1.1.1 and it no longer looks lovely. It's not down to workflow, which was quite possibly done in exactly the order you describe.
Pianist/accompanist/engraver/arranger
2019 Macbook Pro 16" 2.3gGHz 8-core i9, 32GB RAM,
2015 Macbook Pro 13" Retina 3.1GHz dual-core i7, 8GB RAM; running Sibelius Ultimate, Logic Pro X, Dorico 3 etc.
& 2017 HP ZBook Studio G3 15.6” UHD quad-i7, 16GB RAM, Windows 10 Pro
Sibelius user since Sibelius 7 (Acorn, 1997), Ex-Sibelius user since Dorico 1.0

mdedwards
Junior Member
Posts: 54
Joined: Fri Apr 07, 2017 4:18 pm
Contact:

Re: reset staff spacing

Post by mdedwards » Thu Sep 07, 2017 11:20 am

I think that's correct. I also accept that during this stage of its development, things might look a bit different when opening a score made in an earlier version. I just wouldn't mind a way of resetting the layout so there are no clashes, rather than doing everything by hand. Cheers, Michael

User avatar
Claude Lapalme
Member
Posts: 568
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 6:29 pm
Location: Red Deer, Alberta, Canada
Contact:

Re: reset staff spacing

Post by Claude Lapalme » Thu Sep 07, 2017 1:42 pm

When I imported my chamber version of the Ligeti (into 1.1) and then edited all of the markings, I had great results in the score. The parts however, were another story. Much overlap and no red squares. This is likely due to the fact that that there is an inordinate amount of information in Ligeti -
practiccally in every bar - which makes engraving a nightmare from the get-go. Still, the unaltered cello part looks like this:
ligeti1.jpg
(333.95 KiB) Not downloaded yet

If I add a few system breaks to space out the manymanymany tempo indications so they don't overlap, it gets better, but the spacing is still weird:
ligeti with a few system breaks.jpg
(436.83 KiB) Not downloaded yet

I tried new layouts from scratch, different size papers, etc ... But Dorico seems to cry uncle with this one. It's all fixable in engrave mode of course, but maybe the team would like to have a peak at that score too?

Let me know.
Claude Lapalme - Conductor, Arranger, Orchestrator
Music Director @ Red Deer Symphony Orchestra
Artistic Director @ Rosa Barocca

User avatar
Daniel at Steinberg
Moderator
Posts: 14796
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2012 10:35 am
Contact:

Re: reset staff spacing

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Sun Sep 10, 2017 8:59 am

Yes, Claude, by all means send it over. We have found and fixed the problem that was causing Michael's score to go bananas, and probably it will solve the problem with yours as well, but if you send it to me, then I can confirm that for certain.

Unfortunately the nature of the fix means that any changes you make to the staff spacing to correct the effects of the bug will mean that the systems will all end up in bad positions again once you have got the fix, and you'll need to reset the staff spacing again in the new update when it arrives.

User avatar
Claude Lapalme
Member
Posts: 568
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 6:29 pm
Location: Red Deer, Alberta, Canada
Contact:

Re: reset staff spacing

Post by Claude Lapalme » Sun Sep 10, 2017 2:15 pm

I sent the score to your email. No worries about resetting the spacing once the fix is available: I imagine that I will not be doing this piece again in a long time!
Claude Lapalme - Conductor, Arranger, Orchestrator
Music Director @ Red Deer Symphony Orchestra
Artistic Director @ Rosa Barocca

briansmith
New Member
Posts: 14
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:38 pm
Contact:

Staff spacing porblems

Post by briansmith » Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:13 am

I have read through the 'reset staff spacing' topic but can't find the solution to my problem:

I have a 24 page project with 10 flows for violin and piano. I am creating a version for Bb Clarinet, but when applying the 'Clarinet and PIano' layout (as a transposing layout) the extra key signatures and low ledger lines (I have transposed some of the clarinet part) force the layout into 3 systems per page not 4 as in the orignal version, and it runs 38 pages rather than the original 24. Expensive to print...

I can combine frames/staves ecc. to get 4 systems but the spacing between the staves and sytems is all over the place, and 'reset spacing for frames or systems does nothing, I have the same problem when I set the layout options to force 4 systems per page, they all end up on top of each other and I can't reset the spacing. How is the 'reset spacing' thing supposed to work?

I can't face manually moving every single stave in the project even if I can get it to layout 4 sys per page. So any advice on what I am doing wrong or how to do this better would be aprreciated

User avatar
pianoleo
Grand Senior Member
Posts: 6346
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 11:17 am
Location: London, UK
Contact:

Re: reset staff spacing

Post by pianoleo » Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:29 am

Reset staff spacing just resets manual changes to staff spacing.

By the sounds of things you haven’t implemented any manual staff spacing changes, so “Reset staff spacing” is entirely irrelevant here.
Pianist/accompanist/engraver/arranger
2019 Macbook Pro 16" 2.3gGHz 8-core i9, 32GB RAM,
2015 Macbook Pro 13" Retina 3.1GHz dual-core i7, 8GB RAM; running Sibelius Ultimate, Logic Pro X, Dorico 3 etc.
& 2017 HP ZBook Studio G3 15.6” UHD quad-i7, 16GB RAM, Windows 10 Pro
Sibelius user since Sibelius 7 (Acorn, 1997), Ex-Sibelius user since Dorico 1.0

User avatar
Daniel at Steinberg
Moderator
Posts: 14796
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2012 10:35 am
Contact:

Re: reset staff spacing

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Sun Mar 18, 2018 12:34 pm

If you find that the music overlaps when you force four systems per page via fixing the casting off, perhaps you should consider reducing the staff size slightly (on the Page Setup page of Layout Options). It’s also customary in a layout for solo instrument plus piano to make the solo instrument’s staff smaller than the piano staff, normally around 75% of the size of the piano staff. You can do this by selecting a note in the clarinet staff and choosing Edit > Staff Size > 75%.

briansmith
New Member
Posts: 14
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:38 pm
Contact:

Re: reset staff spacing

Post by briansmith » Sun Mar 18, 2018 1:41 pm

Aha! I didn't realise you could change the size of one stave so easily. I'll try that. Thanks

ezrudel
New Member
Posts: 1
Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2019 4:28 am
Contact:

Re: reset staff spacing

Post by ezrudel » Sat Dec 07, 2019 4:32 am

Hi, having a similar problem; there was a repeat ending causing two systems to be much farther apart than they needed to be, but then when I moved the ending down and away from the rehearsal mark, it didn't change the system spacing, so there's a big empty gap in the middle of the lead sheet.
dorico staff spacing.png
(75.79 KiB) Not downloaded yet

User avatar
Daniel at Steinberg
Moderator
Posts: 14796
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2012 10:35 am
Contact:

Re: reset staff spacing

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Mon Dec 09, 2019 10:33 am

Welcome to the forum, ezrudel. Once Dorico has calculated the staff spacing result based on the profile of things protruding above and below the staff, then making adjustments in Engrave mode won't change that result: this is to ensure that the result is stable and doesn't undo any other edits you have made unexpectedly. You might find that for a single-staff part layout, you get a more pleasing default result if you actually disable the feature that automatically avoids collisions between systems on the Vertical Spacing page of Layout Options. Often just setting a reasonable ideal distance between systems and letting vertical justification do its thing is sufficient.

Post Reply

Return to “Dorico”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: András at Steinberg, Ulf and 7 guests