Triplets copy paste

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georgesdimitrov
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Triplets copy paste

Post by georgesdimitrov »

Hi!

I started to notate Chopin's 1st Prelude, and I run into triplet copy/pasting bugs. I've read already other threads where they mention that you need to be sure to select the number or banner if it's hidden, and I'm positively sure I do. Almost all tirplets copy correctly apart one, which is weird. I tried both R and Ctrl+C/V.

As it's a fairly complex score - there's 3 voices in one staff + cross-staff notation, I'm attaching the dorico file so you can check where a conflict happens between all the systems.

Thanks!

(By the way, Chopin original notation (http://cdn.imslp.org/images/thumb/pdfs/ ... acab35.png) is rhythmically incorrect in the 3rd voice with the dotted 8th. What's the modern engravers' take on this? Should I fix it with correct tied 8ths like in my example, or should I try to fake Chopin's original intention? And if I wanted to do so, would there be any way in Dorico to do it?)
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Prelude 01.zip
(264.64 KiB) Downloaded 61 times
Dorico - copypaste2.jpg
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Rob Tuley
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Re: Triplets copy paste

Post by Rob Tuley »

For the copying problem, personally I would enter all the notes BEFORE hiding the tuplet brackets and moving the notes from their original staff. That makes it easier to see exactly what you are doing.

From your picture, it looks as if you selected the notes, but not the number or the signpost. Or, there are two signposts at the same position and you selected the wrong one.

You can fake Chopin's notation by using nested tuplets. The attachment shows the basic idea to get the correct rhythm - I didn't spend time entering the correct notes!
Prelude 1.png
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georgesdimitrov
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Re: Triplets copy paste

Post by georgesdimitrov »

Wow, thanks for the nested tuplets tip, that's great! :)

As for the copy paste, I am positively absolutely sure that I select everything including banners and numbers (the specific triplet that copies wrong is actually not hidden). I even tested it with all numbers/brackest shown, and without any cross-staffing, and it still copies wrong. The dorico file is attached, maybe I am doing something wrong I'm unaware of, if anyone can get it to copy-paste correctly, tell us how you did it!

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Re: Triplets copy paste

Post by dbudde »

I'm able to copy correctly if I do the upper staff and lower staff separately. I think the problem is that the first rest in the upper staff overlaps the first rest from the lowered staff and when you are selecting items, it is deselecting one of those rests and you don't see that happening. So it's not possible to select the whole measure without moving those rests apart.

Maybe by selecting with filters would work better. But it's confusing to be able to see what is really selected as long as those rests are on top of each other.

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georgesdimitrov
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Re: Triplets copy paste

Post by georgesdimitrov »

Thanks for the help! With a bit more experimentation, I nailed down the problem to indeed the rests in the beginning. Specifically, when I uncheck "start" voice for the little descending triplet in the middle, it shows an 8th rest in the first half of the bar. When this rest is selected as well, it manages to copy correctly, even both staves at once.

So the problem to fix seems to be: The ability to copy a bar in which a "voice" starts mid-measure and contains a triplet.

Also, is there a way that forced stem directions could copy? Here's what I get now with R or copy/paste:

Image

It's a lot of mess to clean for 32 bars one by one, when you should be able to set up things and copy them.

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Re: Triplets copy paste

Post by dbudde »

Ah, so you had a hidden rest. That explains it. As explained elsewhere, hidden items don't copy on a bar selection. Neither do chord symbols, nor do cross stave items unless you select both staves. Bar selection is like a box of chocolates, you never know what you're going to get.

As for stem direction and other properties, it's not clear if there is a good way to do this. I've done a lot of tuplet copying in piano staves and what I try to do is find a similar bar to copy and then set lock to duration and re-pitch the notes, making whatever cross stave, stem and beam adjustments are necessary at the end.

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georgesdimitrov
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Re: Triplets copy paste

Post by georgesdimitrov »

Hello! Thanks for the help guys, you can see the finished product here, on my just-started analysis blog: http://www.georgesdimitrov.com/2017/11/ ... p-28-no-1/.

Dorico engraving looks just amazing.

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MarcLarcher
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Re: Triplets copy paste

Post by MarcLarcher »

Beautiful work !
Marc Larcher

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Opera singer (lyric tenor), photographer, sound engineer, XeLaTeX user and music engraver (Dorico Pro 3.5, and Photoscore Ultimate 2020.1.14(9.0.2))
French is my native language

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Romanos401
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Re: Triplets copy paste

Post by Romanos401 »

dbudde wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:14 pm
Ah, so you had a hidden rest. That explains it. As explained elsewhere, hidden items don't copy on a bar selection. Neither do chord symbols, nor do cross stave items unless you select both staves. Bar selection is like a box of chocolates, you never know what you're going to get.

As for stem direction and other properties, it's not clear if there is a good way to do this. I've done a lot of tuplet copying in piano staves and what I try to do is find a similar bar to copy and then set lock to duration and re-pitch the notes, making whatever cross stave, stem and beam adjustments are necessary at the end.
I was setting Bach's Jesu bleibet chorale and selected a bar to copy/paste and when I had the triplet signposts hidden, it wouldn't copy the triplets correctly. What's interesting is I was clicking on the bar (ie- select all) and not specific notes or beams. I would have expected, in that scenario, that it would have copied the complete properties of the triplets. I was glad I was able to figure out what was going on but I'd like to see that changed.
🎵 Director of Sacred Music, Organist, Choral Conductor, Composer; Adjunct Organ Instructor at Goshen College
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Romanos401
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Re: Triplets copy paste

Post by Romanos401 »

BTW- Georges, your blog is excellent! I really appreciate the time you took to engrave everything and provide the audio for a clean uniform (and clear) approach. Bravo!
🎵 Director of Sacred Music, Organist, Choral Conductor, Composer; Adjunct Organ Instructor at Goshen College
💾 Dorico 3.5 pro, Noteperformer, Hauptwerk 5 Advanced, StudioOne pro 4.6, On1 2020, FinalCut Pro, Camtasia, Wavelab Elements
🖥 iMac w/32gb ram, MacMini w/16gb ram, Stream Deck (& SDXL), SaffirePro40, NuForce uDAC
🎹 Alesis VI 61, 3m Organ Console

Klaviersonic
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Re: Triplets copy paste

Post by Klaviersonic »

Looks great! How did you create the analysis/harmonic notation?

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georgesdimitrov
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Re: Triplets copy paste

Post by georgesdimitrov »

Thanks! I exported the PDF to Adobe Illustrator for the analysis part, as unfortunately Dorico's not able to handle it yet.

I lock the imported score on a layer, then I draw in the analysis on another. That way it's easy to select and copy analysis elements from one score to another, and also if I make a small change to the score in Dorico, it's easy to re-import it without losing the analysis on top. An in-Dorico solution which could produce the same result would be awesome down the road.

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Re: Triplets copy paste

Post by Klaviersonic »

Very cool, thanks for sharing!

I've seen some forum members have had some success in using lyrics text with the Opus Figured Bass font to create analytic marks, but your solution seems more flexible overall.

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Re: Triplets copy paste

Post by dbudde »

In Dorico 1.2 the triplet part of the copy is now correct, but the stem direction is not maintained. Was this intended to be fixed also?

I copied the first bar in the OP's Prelude 01.zip file as a test.

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