How to know on which voice is a note?

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How to know on which voice is a note?

Post by cmbourget » Sun Jul 01, 2018 2:17 pm

I am learning to work in Dorico and there are many beautiful things. However, I had some bugs where notes began to add up to infinity. I had to turn off my computer to stop the case. I do not like some automation too restrictive. We should be able to write more freely if necessary (because we compose!). But overall, the base is good, serious. Reading with Halion (at this point: we will see with Vienna and others) is excellent.

Question in writing: in the case of multiple voices, how to know on which voice is a note? I do not find. You should immediately know through a window in the bottom table, right?
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Re: How to know on which voice is a note?

Post by pianoleo » Sun Jul 01, 2018 2:27 pm

View > Note and Rest Colors > Voice Colors.
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Re: How to know on which voice is a note?

Post by cmbourget » Sun Jul 01, 2018 2:41 pm

pianoleo wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 2:27 pm
View > Note and Rest Colors > Voice Colors.
Thanks !
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Re: How to know on which voice is a note?

Post by cmbourget » Sun Jul 01, 2018 9:03 pm

Ok, but that does not indicate which voice. For example, I want a note to be linked to a voice (which is blue). I choose: change of voice. But for which? I have two up, two down. No color indication in this list. I have to search, try to see. This is not effective. It is imperative to know, when one is on a note, to which voice it belongs, and if one changes the voice, what are the others exactly.
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Re: How to know on which voice is a note?

Post by Del_Gesu » Sun Jul 01, 2018 9:29 pm

I have the same problem. It would be very handy to have voices colores description in the „voice” property.

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Re: How to know on which voice is a note?

Post by cmbourget » Sun Jul 01, 2018 11:15 pm

Del_Gesu wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 9:29 pm
I have the same problem. It would be very handy to have voices colores description in the „voice” property.
Exactly. Or in the bottom window. Daniel ?
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Re: How to know on which voice is a note?

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Sun Jul 01, 2018 11:59 pm

The easiest way to discover what voice a note is in is to select it, then hit Shift+N or Return to start note input: the voice indication at the bottom left of the caret will show you both the direction and the index of the voice. A common mistake made by people coming to Dorico for the first time is to use Shift+V whenever you need to switch between voices: don't do this! Use Shift+V only when you need to first create a new voice. After that, use V to cycle between the voices that already exist. It's rare to need more than three voices on a staff, and even two is unusual unless you are writing for keyboard or percussion, so if you are having problems with voices, it is very likely because you have created more than you need.

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Re: How to know on which voice is a note?

Post by benwiggy » Mon Jul 02, 2018 11:28 am

I presume it's intentional that Purple is used for the same voice as Blue when it's in the left hand of a grand stave?

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Re: How to know on which voice is a note?

Post by pianoleo » Mon Jul 02, 2018 11:52 am

It absolutely is. I’m kind of planning to do a voice identification chart for this thread but haven’t got to it yet. The biggest complication is that grand staff instruments have multiple sets of colours - three stave instruments (such as Organ) complicate this further.

As you can see from your screenshot, it would potentially be confusing if both staves used blue for upstem 1 and red for downstem 1, because it’d be impossible to see which stave a cross-staffed note originated on.
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Re: How to know on which voice is a note?

Post by cmbourget » Mon Jul 02, 2018 12:48 pm

Daniel at Steinberg wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 11:59 pm
The easiest way to discover what voice a note is in is to select it, then hit Shift+N or Return to start note input: the voice indication at the bottom left of the caret will show you both the direction and the index of the voice. A common mistake made by people coming to Dorico for the first time is to use Shift+V whenever you need to switch between voices: don't do this! Use Shift+V only when you need to first create a new voice. After that, use V to cycle between the voices that already exist. It's rare to need more than three voices on a staff, and even two is unusual unless you are writing for keyboard or percussion, so if you are having problems with voices, it is very likely because you have created more than you need.
I write for keyboard in this case. I need 4 voices. In contemporary music, it can be more. Then, beyond Shift + N, it would be necessary, as soon as a note is selected (simply), to know its voice by a display. If we follow the request of others on this thread, it goes in the same direction.
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Re: How to know on which voice is a note?

Post by cmbourget » Mon Jul 02, 2018 12:52 pm

I also talked about a bug (if it is) because the notes are added to infinity without activity on the keyboard or the mouse. I add frequent blockages on the Breve. As it happens, it undoes all the contents of the litters. No Escape works in this case, or there is always a return on this Breve. I have to close Dorico and reopen it.
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Re: How to know on which voice is a note?

Post by pianoleo » Mon Jul 02, 2018 1:03 pm

Sorry, can you explain what you mean by “the notes are added to infinity”?
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Re: How to know on which voice is a note?

Post by cmbourget » Mon Jul 02, 2018 1:33 pm

pianoleo wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 1:03 pm
Sorry, can you explain what you mean by “the notes are added to infinity”?
As if I added a note with keyboard or mouse without ever stopping. Like a key blocked, but without key actually blocked. No stops possible except close the computer. Note that my keyboard, my mouse, my controller work well with Pro tools, Cubase, Siblelius. This is not a basic hardware problem.

The problem of insistent Breve, which constantly returns, is more annoying because of the frequency. I try to check my mishandling, if that's it, and I do not see it. I understand that Dorico has automatisms that must be known and controlled, but I think it's a bug.
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Re: How to know on which voice is a note?

Post by pianoleo » Mon Jul 02, 2018 2:18 pm

I've been reading pretty much every thread on this forum for over a year, and I've never seen this particular problem before. A cursory search indicates that someone had a similar problem in Cubase while using Kontakt instruments (viewtopic.php?t=36729). Are you using Kontakt?
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Re: How to know on which voice is a note?

Post by cmbourget » Mon Jul 02, 2018 3:23 pm

pianoleo wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 2:18 pm
I've been reading pretty much every thread on this forum for over a year, and I've never seen this particular problem before. A cursory search indicates that someone had a similar problem in Cubase while using Kontakt instruments (viewtopic.php?t=36729). Are you using Kontakt?
No, it's with Dorico. I will try to analyze better, but it is not easy.
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Re: How to know on which voice is a note?

Post by pianoleo » Mon Jul 02, 2018 3:56 pm

I've done a little experiment, with the power of Dorico and the dropper tool in Microsoft Paint (seriously!) . My results are below, and there's a clearer PDF attached for reference.

The top staff shows 24 voices, ordered Upstem 1, Downstem 1, Upstem 2, Downstem 2 etc. It's an example of the palette that Dorico uses. I've numbered the colours, not the voices. The PDF probably does a better job of showing that the 24 colours are unique.

The 2 staff instrument is quite easy to understand. If you were to create an empty Piano instrument, Dorico would always give you a blue bar rest on the top staff (colour 1) and a red bar rest on the bottom staff (colour 2). Thus when you create additional voices on the top staff, colour 2 (red) is skipped.

The 3-staff instrument uses exactly the same colours but in a completely different order. I've gone on numbering in order that one can refer back to the top staff palette, but I can't infer why Dorico would behave the way that it does here.

Image

I generally work with voice colours switched on, and I engraved a piece for six pianos a little while ago, so I can confirm that for single stave and grand staff instruments Dorico's consistent in its voice colouring. For three stave instruments I really haven't any clue!
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Re: How to know on which voice is a note?

Post by PaulWalmsley » Mon Jul 02, 2018 4:43 pm

There's nothing particularly magical about the colour sequence - it's just walking around the colour wheel. The order of colours will depend on when the voices were created, so it won't always be the same if you have more than 2 staves.
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Re: How to know on which voice is a note?

Post by cparmerlee » Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:07 pm

cmbourget wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 11:15 pm
Del_Gesu wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 9:29 pm
I have the same problem. It would be very handy to have voices colores description in the „voice” property.
Exactly. Or in the bottom window. Daniel ?
Or a hover-over tooltip -- or anything. It is incomprehensible as it is.
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Re: How to know on which voice is a note?

Post by pianoleo » Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:32 pm

Paul is of course correct. Voices are coloured in the order they're created, according to the colour wheel demonstrated in the top stave of my demo. As such it won't even be consistent with a two-stave instrument, unless you always input the top stave's music first (and then the colours of the bottom stave will still depend on how many voices exist in the top stave).
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Re: How to know on which voice is a note?

Post by kenneth gaw » Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:56 pm

I found that setting Dorico keyboard shortcuts to view show voice colors (Ctrl+Shift+Alt+c) of no colors (Ctrl+Shift+Alt+k) helps considerably.
I've also used this AutoHotKey script to "peek" at the voice colors. They are visible as long as the ScrollLock key is held down. This should work if you have a Windows PC, have installed AutoHotKey and have set the Dorico shortcuts as above.

Code: Select all

;To get this to work set the following Dorico shorcuts.
;Ctrl+Shift+Alt+c = Note and Rest Colors>Voice Colors
;Ctrl+Shift+Alt+k = Note and Rest Colors>None


#NoEnv  ; Recommended for performance and compatibility with future AutoHotkey releases.
; #Warn  ; Enable warnings to assist with detecting common errors.
SendMode Input  ; Recommended for new scripts due to its superior speed and reliability.
SetWorkingDir %A_ScriptDir%  ; Ensures a consistent starting directory.

;#IfWinActive, Dorico
;ahk_class Qt5QWindow

#IfWinActive, ahk_class Qt5QWindowIcon

{

ScrollLock::
send ^+!c
KeyWait, ScrollLock
send ^+!k

return
}

To use it: download and install AutoHotKey, copy the code into an empty text file, change the file type to .ahk and double click on it.

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Re: How to know on which voice is a note?

Post by MarcLarcher » Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:19 pm

Dear cmbouget,
Your infinity of notes makes me think of a bad connector in a MIDI cable… I wanted to share that feeling, just to be sure ;-)
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Re: How to know on which voice is a note?

Post by PaulWalmsley » Mon Jul 02, 2018 11:44 pm

Also USB hubs that can't provide enough power have given problems in the past, such as creating more notes than expected. If you get unexpected behaviour with a MIDI keyboard then it is often worth trying to plug it into a different port (or unplugging other things).
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Re: How to know on which voice is a note?

Post by cparmerlee » Thu Jul 05, 2018 12:37 am

Maybe there is something obvious I am missing, but is there some way to set which voice you are entering into? I see where I can change a voice after it is entered, but honestly, Dorico crashes about half the time I do that. Can I reset to voice I am entering into BEFORE I enter notes?
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Re: How to know on which voice is a note?

Post by pianoleo » Thu Jul 05, 2018 12:42 am

Of course. Set the caret and hit V to scroll through the voices that already exist on the stave. You should see a note with a stem, either up or down, and if you’re in a Voice other than upstem 1 or downstem 1, a number. The note tells you whether you’re working with an upstem or downstem Voice, and the number gives you, well, the number...
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Re: How to know on which voice is a note?

Post by cparmerlee » Thu Jul 05, 2018 12:57 am

pianoleo wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 12:42 am
Of course. Set the caret and hit V to scroll through the voices that already exist on the stave.
Ahhh. Thanks. I really did search a lot to try to find that.

At this point I am dead in the water with a project that has the bass part mostly as slash regions, but I need to show rhythms here and there as rhythm slash voices. If I enter this in the default voice, Dorico crashes every time I try to change the notes to my slash voice. Daniel says this is a know problem that will be included in the next patch. But I can't finish this project without that ability. I will try setting the voice before entering the notes and hopefully that will avoid the crash.

Another possible work-around might be to create a new slash voice ever time I have to show those rhythms. I think the crash happens when you try to change something to an existing slash voice. It might not crash if every rhythm I show goes to a different voice.

----
On edit, Setting the voice with the V command before entering the rhythms did work without crashing. I wish the V command would display the caret icon using the colors that are assigned to the voices. That would make it much easier to try to correlate things. In my case, I am trying to have only 2 voices, so that isn't too hard. But this would get really confusing if a person has a need for 4 or more voices.
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