After watching the Avid press conference....

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After watching the Avid press conference....

Post by Eric » Fri Oct 21, 2011 3:55 am

I feel the need to say, "Thank you Steinberg".

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Re: After watching the Avid press conference....

Post by Tumppi Järnefelt » Fri Oct 21, 2011 6:30 am

They have really studied Nuendo prior this release I'd say!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... pyeCHjdxSk

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Re: After watching the Avid press conference....

Post by Fredo » Fri Oct 21, 2011 7:34 am

Yeah ... They now have a 32bit floating point mixer which avoids dithering and provides a better sounding mix.

Strangely enough, pretty much no-one believed us (including many Nuendo users) when we said that years ago.
;o)


Fredo

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Re: After watching the Avid press conference....

Post by Eric » Fri Oct 21, 2011 1:58 pm

It looks like they are returning to tying into their own hardware again. You can't buy the HDX card without an Omni interface. $999 for the HD software upgrade (Thanks for the free 5.5 Steniberg). And they are dropping support of HD and most interface and controllers in a year!
I'll just stay here with Nuendo. Thanks!

>>>
Q: Is Pro Tools 10 the last new software release for the original Pro Tools|HD hardware?
A: Yes. Pro Tools 10 will be the final full version release to support Pro Tools|HD (TDM) hardware and legacy "Digidesign" audio interfaces, as we make our transition to a full 64-bit application. That said, we're offering fantastic deals to Pro Tools|HD customers to crossgrade to our new Pro Tools|HDX system, which offers up 5x more power than Pro Tools|HD, plus much more headroom for mixing and plug-in processing.

As we move forward, please be aware of the following:
Pro Tools 10 will be the final feature release for Pro Tools|HD TDM systems
Pro Tools 10 will be the final supported feature release for legacy Digidesign interfaces and controllers, including:
192 I/O
192 Digital I/O
96 I/O
96i I/O
SYNC (original "blue")
SYNC HD (original "blue")
MIDI I/O
003 family
Mbox 2 family
Control|24
Command|8
Pro Control

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Re: After watching the Avid press conference....

Post by MattiasNYC » Fri Oct 21, 2011 4:14 pm

In light of their announcements and improvements (certainly not innovations to a large extent) one wonders where Steinbergs marketing department is hiding?

The ONLY thing I see is marketing of Cubase and related music production tools. Can't even remember the last time I saw Nuendo mentioned or marketed. (I just saw on the SB webpage new VST Sound Loop Sets. It says they're "compatible with Sequel 2 or higher, Cubase/Cubase Studio/Cubase Essential 4.5 or higher and Cubase 6/Cubase Artist 6/Cubase Elements 6".... Not Nuendo???)

And it's at times like these, when PT users are irritated over pricing but all happy about new features that Nuendo has had for a long time, that SB should promote its "flagship"..... I guess when it gets cold enough down under we'll see that....
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Re: After watching the Avid press conference....

Post by Dietz » Fri Oct 21, 2011 5:28 pm

Fredo wrote:Yeah ... They now have a 32bit floating point mixer which avoids dithering and provides a better sounding mix.

Strangely enough, pretty much no-one believed us (including many Nuendo users) when we said that years ago.
;o)


Fredo
Quote from the DigiDes ... uhm ... Avid HP:

"Mix it up—at higher resolution

With Pro Tools 10, you can mix multiple audio file formats and bit depths within the same session—including interleaved—without any file duplication to cause project bloat. Plus, with support for 32-bit floating-point file formats, you’ll get higher resolution sound when recording or importing, with more headroom to preserve the integrity of your audio from beginning to end."


Now it's official: We record and mix with "higher resolution sound" and had "more headroom to preserve the integrity" of our audio files since almost 12 years now!

I can't remember how often I've been told by "real pros" that ProT**l's way to process audio is "more professional" and thus "better". :lol: Obviously they have been lied to for decades.
/Dietz

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Re: After watching the Avid press conference....

Post by Eric » Fri Oct 21, 2011 7:19 pm

Lydiot wrote:In light of their announcements and improvements (certainly not innovations to a large extent) one wonders where Steinbergs marketing department is hiding?

The ONLY thing I see is marketing of Cubase and related music production tools. Can't even remember the last time I saw Nuendo mentioned or marketed. (I just saw on the SB webpage new VST Sound Loop Sets. It says they're "compatible with Sequel 2 or higher, Cubase/Cubase Studio/Cubase Essential 4.5 or higher and Cubase 6/Cubase Artist 6/Cubase Elements 6".... Not Nuendo???)

And it's at times like these, when PT users are irritated over pricing but all happy about new features that Nuendo has had for a long time, that SB should promote its "flagship"..... I guess when it gets cold enough down under we'll see that....
I agree Steinberg should be all over this with publicity.

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Re: After watching the Avid press conference....

Post by Oliver.Lucas » Fri Oct 21, 2011 8:00 pm

The real improvement is the clip gain/xfades function copied from other DAWs, including Nuendo.
I wonder when SB or AVID will finally copy clip based EQ, another killer feature from fairlight.

Ollie

p.s.: I cannot believe that neither of them has this KILLER audio post feature from a system that I used over 10 years ago...
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Re: After watching the Avid press conference....

Post by MattiasNYC » Fri Oct 21, 2011 9:17 pm

Oliver, how is clip based eq different from offline processing of the clips?
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Re: After watching the Avid press conference....

Post by Big K » Sat Oct 22, 2011 12:37 am

Dietz wrote:
Fredo wrote:Yeah ... They now have a 32bit floating point mixer which avoids dithering and provides a better sounding mix.
Strangely enough, pretty much no-one believed us (including many Nuendo users) when we said that years ago.
;o)Fredo
Quote from the DigiDes ... uhm ... Avid HP:

"Mix it up—at higher resolution

Now it's official: We record and mix with "higher resolution sound" and had "more headroom to preserve the integrity" of our audio files since almost 12 years now!
I can't remember how often I've been told by "real pros" that ProT**l's way to process audio is "more professional" and thus "better". :lol: Obviously they have been lied to for decades.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Fredo, servus Dietz...
Yessss ...........
I really kill myself laughing over this new Alsihad comedy act.
I always had the opinion that Nuendo was in many ways superior over Pootools and that the business policy of Digi/Avid was to kick their customers in the butt whenever it gives them any profit...

This, once again, should be telling the pro audio community what to expect from them...
All the Pohtools users with a lot of expensive, yet never excellent Digi hardware, must be ever sooo piffed off, they'd prolly be very tempted to convert to Nuendo... LOL... and it would be for the better, too.

Steinberg should hire a few badass caricaturists and place full-page gleeful cartoons about it... hehehe...
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Re: After watching the Avid press conference....

Post by Fredo » Sat Oct 22, 2011 8:45 am

Here's another funny "feature":

Code: Select all

Pro Tools 10 supports the WAVE Extensible file format for audio files.This file format specifies multiple audio channel data (surround sound) along with speaker positions, which is stored within the audio file header. These audio files are identified in DigiBase browsers with the designation “WAV (BWF EXT)” in the Attributes field. If you are working with greater-than-stereo multi channel track formats in your Pro Tools sessions, it is recommended that you use the WAV file format rather than AIF
.

Nuendo has this feature for years, but experienced so much opposition from PT users (because it crashed each and every PT version, except for the new 10) that the developers had to add the "don't use Waves Extensible format" flag in the export panel. If you search the old forums, you will find long pi**ing contests about "how wrong and how out-of-touch-with-reality Steinberg was" in implementing this standard.


BTW, don't get me wrong, I applaud the fact that Avid applies this standard, I just want to make fun of all those who were participating in those pi**ing contests.

Fredo

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Re: After watching the Avid press conference....

Post by Big K » Sat Oct 22, 2011 1:46 pm

ROFLMAO...

Another good one from and for the PoTool Pros...
Hilarious !!! Keep it comming, Fredo...

You guys should have read the drivel and problems of Alsihad users about headroom in R.org...
I was flabbergasted ( great word, btw..lol ) what ghosts and sagas are wide-spread amongst the so called professionals about Headroom in the internal digital DAW domain... I had a hard time to learn that this certain DAW was unable to cope with any excessive levels when mixing itb, like Nuendo does, using Floating point from the day it was born... It was especially a problem when they discussed "normalizing", where it is obviously possible to drive everything into cruesome digital distortion, quite easily and accidently.

Your most amused Big K
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Re: After watching the Avid press conference....

Post by MattiasNYC » Sat Oct 22, 2011 3:06 pm

Fredo wrote:Here's another funny "feature":

Code: Select all

Pro Tools 10 supports the WAVE Extensible file format for audio files.This file format specifies multiple audio channel data (surround sound) along with speaker positions, which is stored within the audio file header. These audio files are identified in DigiBase browsers with the designation “WAV (BWF EXT)” in the Attributes field. If you are working with greater-than-stereo multi channel track formats in your Pro Tools sessions, it is recommended that you use the WAV file format rather than AIF
.

Nuendo has this feature for years, but experienced so much opposition from PT users (because it crashed each and every PT version, except for the new 10) that the developers had to add the "don't use Waves Extensible format" flag in the export panel. If you search the old forums, you will find long pi**ing contests about "how wrong and how out-of-touch-with-reality Steinberg was" in implementing this standard.


BTW, don't get me wrong, I applaud the fact that Avid applies this standard, I just want to make fun of all those who were participating in those pi**ing contests.

Fredo
:D
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Re: After watching the Avid press conference....

Post by csd » Sat Oct 22, 2011 11:09 pm

Hi guys - just thought I would offer some opinions from myself and others I work with, as PT10 users and past Nuendo users (we've all moved to PT over the past couple of years for various reasons I won't belabor here).

1 - Interleaved. Yes, other native DAWs have had this, so of course it's very welcome in ProTools. But now PT is the only DAW I know of that handles both interleaved and muli-mono in the same session with no conversion process, and as a user-selectable option for recording. Fantastic addition for choosing which format you want a final mix or re-record stems to be in. And either format works with destructive record/punch.

2 - Clip based gain. Again, nothing new for other DAWs conceptually, but PT10 ups the ante here rather significantly with the ability to draw with full envelope control - just select a section and add gain without cutting a clip. Render, clear, show and hide clip gain envelopes, nudge, etc. Full eucon/KC control over it as well. Fantastic.

3 - 32-bit float. Obviously that's new because it took Avid a few years to transition away from fixed point TDM, and there is no way to keep compatibility between ProTools native systems and TDM with two different dsp formats. Now sessions will transfer identically between native and HDX rigs. That's a rather significant boon for the pro community for offline work staying completely transferable to a larger stage, studio, etc.

4 - Standards. If you aren't the one in 90% of the post houses and studios in the industry, I guess adhering to one's own interpretation of a "standard" is irrelevant. Sorry, just stating the obvious truth. Adoption of standards come from within the core of an industry, not outside of it, and more often than not for very basic practical reasons.

5 - Disk caching will change the way many people work. It's a massive speed improvement here already, not just for editing, but moving around a session with pretty much instantaneous speed. And it works without a hitch.

For what it's worth, I and my colleagues didn't leave Nuendo because it was a bad program - it just seems to implement features in Steinberg's own perspective - one that doesn't line up with our way of thinking, working and interacting with other engineers, producers, etc. Avid/Digi, for all their faults and sloth-like progress over the years, gets the idea of ergonomic workflow.

Now, just offering my opinion here. Steinberg has some good ideas, but at this point needs to focus on what makes them unique instead of looking back at what Nuendo had 10 years ago and pointing at how other DAWs are just catching up - that's of no use in the professional working market, but I think you all know that. Instead of proclaiming the virtues of interleaved to a multi-mono industry, perhaps, instead, Nuendo should have embraced multi-mono as a native format years ago, without an extra conversion process.

I think the days of Nuendo having a chance to compete with ProTools are over. There was a time, probably around version 2/3, where, in my opinion, there was some potential, but PT9 and 10 seem to have pretty much eliminated that option. Perhaps it is time to rethink the two program approach and make Cubase a logically feature-tiered DAW. There are some great aspects to version 6, but competing head to head with ProTools isn't one of them. And there is likely more to come from ProTools, HDX, Eucon and AAX that will further widen the gap.

It should tell you something that people were willing to work for years (and/or switch to ProTools from other DAWs) without clip based gain, interleaved file formats, real-time fades, and put up with high upgrade costs, all for the other advantages ProTools offered.

Maybe that's what Nuendo/Steinberg is missing - not features, but understanding how they fit into the workflow of the industry at large.

Again, just my opinion - hope you find it in the informative spirit it was intended. Steinberg's business is their own, as is Avid's, so that's all I'll offer on this topic.

Cheers!

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Re: After watching the Avid press conference....

Post by Oliver.Lucas » Sun Oct 23, 2011 7:40 am

csd,

without wanting to comment on all the aspects that you listed, I feel that you are right in a way that AVID has finally stared to listen to customers AND has a group of people who have a vision about where to go with their product.
I feel happy for colleagues running PT as their main DAW that they can finally enjoy clip gain and a proper mixer engine in 2011, something that I have had with fairlight and nuendo since over a decade....

fairlight also had clip based eq back then, something really great for post work, that neither Steinberg nor AVID have managed to copy yet!

I personally think that PT was a DAW more limited by it's hardware and maybe saturation of the company than it needed to be. Now it is catching up on the native side and obviously it is taking all the right turns at the moment (at a rather "pro" price tag). I am not too sure about proclaiming yet another plug in format, though. Maybe VST would have been nice, many do that now, including the big ones like Lawo and agin fairlight. But that's up to Avid to decide.

I really don't see the big war that many users seem to feel. There really is no need for "MY" choice to win. Of course, we are living in a captialist world, where competition means a lot, but if you look at it from the other side, it's actually quite nice that the "right" ideas like clip gain and fades have now finally mad it to PT as well. Now dump the stupid Nuendo edit mode limitations and bring on dual mono and destructive record for Nuendo and we're all happy.....er yes and don't forget to copy clip based eq for both DAWs from fairlight please...

Ollie
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Re: After watching the Avid press conference....

Post by Dietz » Sun Oct 23, 2011 10:58 am

@ csd: just in case you _aren't_ an Avid marketing weasel, I thought you should know that you sound like one. :ugeek:
csd wrote:[...]
I think the days of Nuendo having a chance to compete with ProTools are over. [...]
Maybe ... if it should be like that then for the sole reason that the laggard is finally catching up technically.

Don't get me wrong - I'm working about 40% of my time with ProT**ls, 35% Nuendo, 15% L*gic, and with some other DAW's too (I'm a freelancer). Maybe you lost these things out of sight a bit (as most people who invested a fortune in DigiDesign stuff), but ProT**ls 10 is a lame rip-off of concepts that were around a decade before.
/Dietz

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Re: After watching the Avid press conference....

Post by Big K » Sun Oct 23, 2011 2:31 pm

Hear, hear !! ( this is fun like we had it in the old forum... :-)

I am not sure that I miss one feature of PT that Nuendo doesn't have, but this is surely owed to the personal workflow...
The long-known attitude of advertising long existing features (as if they invented the world anew) at Digi's / Avid's is funny and sad at the same time. Not for nothing PT got an Oscar in 2004, ... was it for posing??...lol..

The most neutral statement I can throw in is: I safed me a LOT of cash not going Alsihad and can do anything I need or want to do with ease on a decent Standart PC for over 10 years, now. PT dealers were running our doors in to buy PT with every new Software / Hardware version since early '90s. But only shortly before, we had bought a SoundTools system (12bit/2Tracks) from of them and it never worked...never! and it was bloody expensive. So, we kicked them out everytime and bought a Sony DASH 3324 S for 150 Grand, instead ( still in use, occasionally ). Later we decided to go Nuendo which we never regretted. Unlike some PooTools user will, now, when they hear about the ending support for their massive investments in Alsihad...
There is no war against Avid from my side... but a healthy scepticism and a memory, well in tact, of what was over the period of 20 years....

Big K ( shaking his grayed head in disbelieve and amusement...)

Big LOL
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Re: After watching the Avid press conference....

Post by csd » Sun Oct 23, 2011 6:48 pm

Dietz wrote:@ csd: just in case you _aren't_ an Avid marketing weasel, I thought you should know that you sound like one. :ugeek:
csd wrote:[...]
I think the days of Nuendo having a chance to compete with ProTools are over. [...]
Maybe ... if it should be like that then for the sole reason that the laggard is finally catching up technically.

Don't get me wrong - I'm working about 40% of my time with ProT**ls, 35% Nuendo, 15% L*gic, and with some other DAW's too (I'm a freelancer). Maybe you lost these things out of sight a bit (as most people who invested a fortune in DigiDesign stuff), but ProT**ls 10 is a lame rip-off of concepts that were around a decade before.
No, I am a longtime former Nuendo user with many years of experience with most of the DAWs out there; also a prior occasional member of this forum, and a pro composer/sound designer. I don't rep for any company and don't hold blind allegiance to any product for the sake of allegiance. I wanted to see Nuendo develop and succeed where I needed, but at the end of the day, I use what makes my work more productive, creative and efficient, period.

Perhaps you haven't tried ProTools 10 to know how well Avid's version of these common features are implemented - Nuendo could learn a few things there. And perhaps you missed the part of my previous post where I indicated that people have used ProTools *despite* the lack of clip gain, etc for reasons that exceed the value of those features alone - a concept that, in my opinion, Steinberg has dismissed consistently for many years now in it's approach to Nuendo.

You are welcome to disagree with my comment that Nuendo's days of vying for post are over, but it comes from personal experience and conversations with other Nuendo users in the post industry here in the US that have moved on.

I was just offering real-world feedback, but if that isn't of interest to anyone here, then so be it. But seriously guys, name calling ("weasal"?) and a p i s s i n g contest are hardly the calling cards of a professional user base. To each their own I suppose.

Best of luck.
csd

(btw - sad that the forum now self-edits posts....)

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Re: After watching the Avid press conference....

Post by TechBytes » Sun Oct 23, 2011 8:38 pm

csd wrote: I was just offering real-world feedback, but if that isn't of interest to anyone here, then so be it. But seriously guys, name calling ("weasal"?) and a *quiz* contest are hardly the calling cards of a professional user base. To each their own I suppose.
csd,

There is no point trying to reason with the remaining circle jerk that frequents this space , seriously let them continue drowning waving, clutching at straws.

Simple fact is this , despite Nuendo having the technological edge in a lot of areas for many years , Steinberg failed to deliver on the potential. Perpetual bugs , arrogant blind mindedness in refusal to listen to professional end user requests, qualms, issues , endless workarounds , inane issues with core functionality , dismissal and denial from the official and unofficial reps that resulted in alienation of a large number of the community that once frequented here, the idiotic marketing strategies , the endless lip service , etc, etc.

Protools maybe Alsihad , but the reality is its Alsineeds.. !!

He who laughs last.....

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Re: After watching the Avid press conference....

Post by MattiasNYC » Sun Oct 23, 2011 9:15 pm

Dietz wrote:ProT**ls 10 is a lame rip-off of concepts that were around a decade before.
If it was a lame rip-off then whatever... Funny as it may be that Avid "ripped" off a bunch of features, and funny as it may be that some PT engineers now are cheering over features that they previously thought weren't important, the fact is that PT is anything but lame.

It works very well.
It's the industry standard.

That's all that's needed for people to buy it. Though some users now are confused about the direction of the product (upgrade paths etc) the fact remains that Avid appears to be listening to its customers. Several PT users wanted clip gain, they got it (and good implementation). They wanted real-time fades, they got it. Etc. Trying to get SB to implement proper grouping and VCAs is like pulling teeth (while the doctor (dentist) is off somewhere making iPad apps).....

..... Or take the offerings on the PT HD "level" of the industry of control surfaces: The artist series which is a cheap surface yet completely usable in pro settings. I see this device in many studios. Then the other Euphonix stuff on top of that... and the old Digi controllers. Compare that to not only not having a device targeted to the Nuendo crowd - but even just the lack of even an announcement of the intent to create something!.... SB moves as gracefully, swiftly and efficiently as one of these:

Image

There are more examples that could be given that shows how SB is out of touch with the wider user base (of at least Nuendo users, in my opinion), but they'd likely result in censored posts so I won't bother.
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Re: After watching the Avid press conference....

Post by Eric » Sun Oct 23, 2011 9:58 pm

I admit I've only been on Nuendo since 5, but I bought it looking for the best solution for me to do mixes without spending $10,000. I tried a lot DAWs and now with Nuendo, Windows XP and my Houston controller I am creating the best mixes I ever had. I started this thread because I am thrilled that I don't have to pay $1,000 for an upgrade and still have advanced features.
At work we run PT 9 HD so I know about that.

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Re: After watching the Avid press conference....

Post by MattiasNYC » Mon Oct 24, 2011 12:51 am

Eric wrote:I admit I've only been on Nuendo since 5, but I bought it looking for the best solution for me to do mixes without spending $10,000. I tried a lot DAWs and now with Nuendo, Windows XP and my Houston controller I am creating the best mixes I ever had. I started this thread because I am thrilled that I don't have to pay $1,000 for an upgrade and still have advanced features.
At work we run PT 9 HD so I know about that.
Those are all very good reasons for using Nuendo I think. I hope for your sake that PT doesn't squeeze Nuendo out of production if you know what I mean. Competition is good in a market economy.
Nuendo 7.1.4 / Lynx TWO-B / Windows 10 Pro 64-bit / Ryzen 1700 3.7GHz (oc) / 16GB Corsair Vengeance DDR4@3200MHz / Radeon VII / ASUS x370-A mobo/ 500GB WD Blue system drive / Crucial BX100 250GB SSD media / spinners for library/backup ::::: iZotope RX 7/ Phoenixverb Surround / DaVinci Resolve / Faderport / Applied Acoustics UltraAnalog / my pet pony Frank

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Re: After watching the Avid press conference....

Post by Eric » Mon Oct 24, 2011 1:40 am

Yes, I know what you mean, and that is a valid concern that I have too.

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Fredo
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Re: After watching the Avid press conference....

Post by Fredo » Mon Oct 24, 2011 8:09 am

Well ... here we go again. Some people like to turn this into another one of those "old" pi***ing contests ... (Hi Vin!)

I think it is very logical that features get copied. Every DAW builder does that. And it is even more easy to *improve* these features, because there is relevant feedback from real life experience. The only thing that can be said is that the marketing machines of both companies are very different. While undoubtly Steinberg has been the innovater, they somehow fail to make a great buzz about the groundbraking features. Avid on the other hand has been conservative but makes the smallest feature sound like it is rocket science. (Remember the "Now we have ... MIDI!!!)

The only "problem" I have is not with Avid itself, but the people who blindy repeat whatever Avid is throwing at them.
Fixed point vs. floating point, how many times we have been there?
Technical standards were ignored and replaced by industry standards for the sake of defending and maintaining shortcomings in their programming. (Dual-mono, Wave extensible, ITU, etc ...)
The deliberate breaking of protocols (OMF, AAF) to insure that only Avid and PT users can use them.
As said, it doesn't matter what Avid does and how they do it, I am just amazed that people are not critical enough and stupidly defend and repeat what their marketing department want's them to believe.

I have no problem whatsoever with Protools, it's a tool like any other tool. People should use what works best for them. I just think it is utterly stupid to make that decision based on a companies' marketing strategy, wanting to be part of the "industry standard" or because they hate some people on a public forum. Buying into a tool (in the case, a DAW) should be a well considered business decision, balanced with personal satisfaction of working with a tool you really like.

Please keep the pi***ing contests at the forums which were created for that reason.

Fredo

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Re: After watching the Avid press conference....

Post by Oliver.Lucas » Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:34 am

Fredo wrote:
I have no problem whatsoever with Protools, it's a tool like any other tool. People should use what works best for them. I just think it is utterly stupid to make that decision based on a companies' marketing strategy, wanting to be part of the "industry standard" or because they hate some people on a public forum. Buying into a tool (in the case, a DAW) should be a well considered business decision, balanced with personal satisfaction of working with a tool you really like.


Fredo
Fredo,

I very much agree with your statement.

The only thing is that going with "the industry standard" can be part of a business decision. Not so much if you run a studio, but certainly if you want to make a living working as a freelancer.

If PT really is "the standard" is another question. It certainly is a strong platform with a huge user base. But I see quite a few fairlight, nuendo and sadie users here in my part of the world.
Even more are flexible enough to work on different platforms...

We all LOVE AUDIO, not MARKETING, don't we?

Ollie
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