Steinberg needs to realize the reality of professional audio work - if you don't work fast, you get fired

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ResonantMind
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Steinberg needs to realize the reality of professional audio work - if you don't work fast, you get fired

Post by ResonantMind » Thu Nov 29, 2018 6:00 pm

We need more focus on small details that make a big difference. They spend so much time coding something new like 'Audio Alignment' which, will only work part of the time... yet there are millions of smaller, likely much easier things to code, that would add up to make a huge difference in our workflows.

Taking away the colour tool, is a direct impediment.

I've been asking for a separate key command for 'snap on' and 'snap off'. Why? Because then you can make grid selection macros in which every time you select a different grid mode, type, division etc, it also triggers 'Snap on' - every time....any time you are doing anything grid related, snap automatically goes on.


If you don't work fast you get fired, and if you can work faster than the other guy you get the job.

Front page feature list attracts hobbyists.... but workflow is what sells pros, and pros using your program is what sells hobbyists.

Focus on small details, that increase workflow. And stability.

You need to realize, that the reality is - all audio engineers, producers, and even artists always go "Woh woh woh, you're not using PROTOOLS? :? :? :? "

Their confidence is already questioning the ability of my studio, work ethic, etc, etc. It's just the reality. So after consoling them and boosting their confidence and telling them that Cubase is a super radical program.... and then the program is also crashing, not stable, certain simple tasks are taking long that PT does quick, IF I AM MOUSE CLICKING TOO MUCH... I look like a COMPLETE IDIOT, for not using ProTools.. I lose work, and I lose money.

All in all, I love Steinberg and Cubase, and there's some cool stuff in v10.... some really good things... but, we need to work out the other details.
Last edited by ResonantMind on Thu Nov 29, 2018 6:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Steinberg needs to realize the reality of professional audio work - if you don't work fast, you get fired

Post by Manike » Thu Nov 29, 2018 6:11 pm

You're absolutely correct regarding the time pressures - and I really think it's something Steinberg need to focus on.

I would say that I think gone are the days that people look at you like you're weird if you're not using protools. So many of the producers, mixing engineers and mastering engineers I know use Cubase. There's plenty that don't too, but I think professionals in the industry totally understand what Cubase has going for it.
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Re: Steinberg needs to realize the reality of professional audio work - if you don't work fast, you get fired

Post by James K » Thu Nov 29, 2018 6:21 pm

Totally agree that some procedures are far too many mouse clicks and some features are not fully implemented.
Fancy and beautiful looking isn't more important than
efficiency of workflow.
Apple has created a maximum workflow and is good at reducing an idea to it's purest form and it does show in Logic Pro workflow.
Having said that I really like Cubase 10. They've added some excellent improvements! I just hope workflow continues to be a focus.
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Re: Steinberg needs to realize the reality of professional audio work - if you don't work fast, you get fired

Post by In_Stereo » Thu Nov 29, 2018 6:27 pm

Agreed on all fronts. The next update for C10 need to focus ONLY on workflow issues -- and there are plenty in Cubase. This first C10 incarnation is great and actually does address a few of them, but there are a large amount that need help still after many years of requesting them.

Variaudio 3 is a GREAT example of forward movement: Far less mouse clicks and navigation. We need that attention on other parts of Cubase, like reducing the need for the Inspector, reducing the need to go back and forth between the Mixer and the Project Window, seeing whatever we name our Sends in the automation lanes in the Project Window, a multi-tool, Variaudio/hitpoints/etc. directly in the project window (not a separate window), and other things that would make day-to-day work in Cubase as intuitive as possible. The modern age on computers is so much about speed, and once Cubase catches up fully in that regard it will be the best DAW available.
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Re: Steinberg needs to realize the reality of professional audio work - if you don't work fast, you get fired

Post by omniphonix » Thu Nov 29, 2018 8:16 pm

Looking back at past Cubase upgrades, the X.0 releases are usually the feature releases and the X.5 are the workflow releases. I am sure you'll get some of your wish list in 10.5.
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Re: Steinberg needs to realize the reality of professional audio work - if you don't work fast, you get fired

Post by ResonantMind » Thu Nov 29, 2018 8:47 pm

omniphonix wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 8:16 pm
Looking back at past Cubase upgrades, the X.0 releases are usually the feature releases and the X.5 are the workflow releases. I am sure you'll get some of your wish list in 10.5.
A lot of people would be happier if that order was reversed... Make our day to day lives easier, then surprise us with new features we don't expect half way trough the year.

At this point, having to wait till .5 to get back what was already there... is hardly going to be a surprise.

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Re: Steinberg needs to realize the reality of professional audio work - if you don't work fast, you get fired

Post by luiza177 » Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:02 pm

ResonantMind wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 6:00 pm
We need more focus on small details that make a big difference. They spend so much time coding something new like 'Audio Alignment' which, will only work part of the time... yet there are millions of smaller, likely much easier things to code, that would add up to make a huge difference in our workflows.

Taking away the colour tool, is a direct impediment.

I've been asking for a separate key command for 'snap on' and 'snap off'. Why? Because then you can make grid selection macros in which every time you select a different grid mode, type, division etc, it also triggers 'Snap on' - every time....any time you are doing anything grid related, snap automatically goes on.


If you don't work fast you get fired, and if you can work faster than the other guy you get the job.

Front page feature list attracts hobbyists.... but workflow is what sells pros, and pros using your program is what sells hobbyists.

Focus on small details, that increase workflow. And stability.

You need to realize, that the reality is - all audio engineers, producers, and even artists always go "Woh woh woh, you're not using PROTOOLS? :? :? :? "

Their confidence is already questioning the ability of my studio, work ethic, etc, etc. It's just the reality. So after consoling them and boosting their confidence and telling them that Cubase is a super radical program.... and then the program is also crashing, not stable, certain simple tasks are taking long that PT does quick, IF I AM MOUSE CLICKING TOO MUCH... I look like a COMPLETE IDIOT, for not using ProTools.. I lose work, and I lose money.

All in all, I love Steinberg and Cubase, and there's some cool stuff in v10.... some really good things... but, we need to work out the other details.
I agree with everything you said. Except perhaps the color tool. I used it, but I also really like the little Shift+Alt+C, which gives us the ability to color multiple things at once.

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Re: Steinberg needs to realize the reality of professional audio work - if you don't work fast, you get fired

Post by ResonantMind » Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:07 pm

luiza177 wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:02 pm
ResonantMind wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 6:00 pm
We need more focus on small details that make a big difference. They spend so much time coding something new like 'Audio Alignment' which, will only work....
I agree with everything you said. Except perhaps the color tool. I used it, but I also really like the little Shift+Alt+C, which gives us the ability to color multiple things at once.

I don't agree with your disagreement :D

See videos:
viewtopic.php?f=283&t=149032



See thread:
viewtopic.php?f=285&t=148072

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Re: Steinberg needs to realize the reality of professional audio work - if you don't work fast, you get fired

Post by luiza177 » Fri Nov 30, 2018 5:41 am

ResonantMind wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:07 pm
luiza177 wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:02 pm
ResonantMind wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 6:00 pm
We need more focus on small details that make a big difference. They spend so much time coding something new like 'Audio Alignment' which, will only work....
I agree with everything you said. Except perhaps the color tool. I used it, but I also really like the little Shift+Alt+C, which gives us the ability to color multiple things at once.

I don't agree with your disagreement :D

See videos:
viewtopic.php?f=283&t=149032



See thread:
viewtopic.php?f=285&t=148072
You can select multiple clips or tracks (w/ shift or ctrl) before clicking a color. Granted, it's rather clunky with tracks vs events, but it works well enough for me.

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Re: Steinberg needs to realize the reality of professional audio work - if you don't work fast, you get fired

Post by Matthias Quellmann » Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:28 am

I like that approach a lot and I agree that these smaller improvements make a big difference.

What are other smaller things or workflows in Cubase that would need some more focus?
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Re: Steinberg needs to realize the reality of professional audio work - if you don't work fast, you get fired

Post by Lasso » Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:24 am

Matthias Quellmann wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:28 am
I like that approach a lot and I agree that these smaller improvements make a big difference.

What are other smaller things or workflows in Cubase that would need some more focus?
Maybe make some sort of "vote" where we can actually contribute all the things that bother us in our daily work and suggestions on new timesaving features that are really important to us. That's what the cores users of Cubase really want. A lot of the new flashy stuff seems primarily targeted at winning over customers from other platforms. Now that's perfectly ok of course but we really need to nail the core stuff.

If I could run your development department I would try to issue more frequent minor updates after customer feedback. Like within weeks. THAT would absolutely kill your competition. Make an update - listen to feedback - develop new update - listen to feedback.....have the Steinberg guys read "Lean Startup"? They should ;)
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Re: Steinberg needs to realize the reality of professional audio work - if you don't work fast, you get fired

Post by Janko Kezar » Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:50 am

Lasso wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:24 am

If I could run your development department I would try to issue more frequent minor updates after customer feedback. Like within weeks. THAT would absolutely kill your competition. Make an update - listen to feedback - develop new update - listen to feedback.....have the Steinberg guys read "Lean Startup"? They should ;)
This. Having only 4 updates per cycle number is too few. If there is something wrong you have to wait too long for a fix.(like 9.5.30 to 9.5.40 took almost 5 months and we know how that one went)
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Re: Steinberg needs to realize the reality of professional audio work - if you don't work fast, you get fired

Post by smapmap » Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:05 pm

Completely agree - Cubase's workflow feels ancient and is too clicky. No smart tools, controls (volume, pan) hidden under panels in the inspector rather than being exposed, not able to reorder tracks in the mixer, click click click.... Studio One shows how it can be done.
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Re: Steinberg needs to realize the reality of professional audio work - if you don't work fast, you get fired

Post by Pablo1980 » Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:18 pm

Matthias Quellmann wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:28 am
I like that approach a lot and I agree that these smaller improvements make a big difference.

What are other smaller things or workflows in Cubase that would need some more focus?
Hi Matthias, thanks for chiming in here. I agree that smaller but more frequent workflow updates are a very good idea.

Answering your question, my wish would be:
1. Smart tool (in the project window and midi editor)

2. Smart midi quantize
(some love to midi composing workflow is overdue)

3. A nicely implemented "chunks" feature that lets us work with several cues in the same project. I would be like a wall in the project that divides everything.

4. The ability to tailor the right click menu and color names, I think you went overboard with these changes.

5. Less clicks overall, as an example: I if want to see the channel editor of the instrument connected to a midi channel there is a lot of clicking to do, It can be solved with a keycommand.

I think you should reach for your users and start a conversation of what they truly want, you are in a position to make the best DAW in the land, but now it feels a little dated in terms of workflow.

Thanks again
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Re: Steinberg needs to realize the reality of professional audio work - if you don't work fast, you get fired

Post by Matthias Quellmann » Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:37 pm

Pablo1980 wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:18 pm
Answering your question, my wish would be:
1. Smart tool (in the project window and midi editor)
There are already some "smart spots" on the events in the project window. Are you asking for something like the range tool in the upper half and the object selection in the lower half?

In the MIDI editor it's not really about a smart tool, isn't it? Are you asking for a different behaviour when drawing and deleting notes?
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Re: Steinberg needs to realize the reality of professional audio work - if you don't work fast, you get fired

Post by Rise n Fall » Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:26 pm

'
Matthias Quellmann wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:28 am
What are other smaller things or workflows in Cubase that would need some more focus?
no offence.. really...

but this prooves to me that steinberg has no idea what the hell they are doing...

That you are just a company that wants to make money and has no idea about music production or workflow nowadays... just a shadow of your former self..

Why do you ask what can be done when so many people with insight and connection to the source have told you over and over...

why all the surveys - what are you, confused?

What does it take?

for me to come over there and virtually kick your asleep asses wake? (in a good way)

It would take me one cycle to make cubase the #1 daw... All I need is for you monkeys to listen to me once and set you back on the right track... all I would need to do is have my "field" interact with yours for a split second so you could see the dang light...

You seem to be blind and not connected as it stands..

the word among some others is : cubase? pfft...

but I like raising the people and brining the underdog back where it belongs...
call me prometheus if you want idk..

but this is the problem with everything... you are disconnected, all chaotic, have all these technical skills but are too dumb to move frorward in a good way...

whxy am i even here? nice click bait phrase matthias ;)

p.s. whats going on with you?- those pictures in your avatatar - is that you? who was the other person? what is going on here??

:P


anywho, whatever... have a nice day =)

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Re: Steinberg needs to realize the reality of professional audio work - if you don't work fast, you get fired

Post by Matthias Quellmann » Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:38 pm

Rise n Fall wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:26 pm
..
this prooves to me that steinberg has no idea what the hell they are doing...
...
That you are just a company that wants to make money and has no idea about music production or workflow nowadays... just a shadow of your former self..
...
why all the surveys - what are you, confused?
...
All I need is for you monkeys to listen to me once and set you back on the right track...
...
You seem to be blind and not connected as it stands..
...
but I like raising the people and brining the underdog back where it belongs...
call me prometheus if you want idk..
Just another day in the Cubase forum...
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Re: Steinberg needs to realize the reality of professional audio work - if you don't work fast, you get fired

Post by Rise n Fall » Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:40 pm

yeah, love everywhere;)

but it is good to discuss certain things - with passionate love towards the well being of cubase in this case... ;)

To your current staff i say : stop trying to kill cubase! ;)

I have nothing but respect for all actually... call it "tough love" in this instance... - it is code, not a living being... ;)

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Re: Steinberg needs to realize the reality of professional audio work - if you don't work fast, you get fired

Post by ResonantMind » Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:47 pm

Matthias Quellmann wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:28 am
I like that approach a lot and I agree that these smaller improvements make a big difference.

What are other smaller things or workflows in Cubase that would need some more focus?
1.) Focusing on and staying on top of key commands, and features that already exist but could be refined deeper. Some of my key command needs will seem completely OCD or ridiculous, but they make sense in the context of macros, many of us Cubase diehards are essentially coding within your code using Macros and PLE.

One thing about Macros, is that toggle commands do not work well in macro coding... There is a lot more I could with the macro feature if there were one-way commands for everything that is toggle based.

There are no hotkeys that I can find, to focus-select zones.

I would create a thread for key commands and key command functions that users need, and code them in as they are suggested as quickly as possible. There is lots of potential not being tapped into... No key commands for info-line fields is another example.


2.) Many of us do use hardware still, External FX is fairly neglected IMO. My connections are always breaking from project to project, and there is no template preset selection - only favourites. It's as if this was designed with huge format consoles or setups with 64 ad/da in-out in mind where people have dedicated ins JUST for their outboard, but some of us only have 8-32 channels and need them all for a variety of tasks.

3.) File naming protocol. I need a way to bounce events without '-0#' being added.


There's lots more,
I've compiled a list of my own and users - simple workflow suggestions - here:
viewtopic.php?f=285&t=148378&p=801833#p801833

There's really so many details we could get into that are SO BORING and not sexy and very nerdy... but I feel like that is sort of overdue.... Now that I'm in this mind set, a big one I can think of, is I've noticed Steinberg has over-looked is keyboard 'tab' logical order. Like when a window opens, you'd hope to already have the most logical field cued for one to type in, and then tab to the next most logical field - but this is amiss in Cubase alot.


It's funny, because a lot of what I would pick on, Cubase already does better than other DAWs or what other DAWs don't do at all.... it's more like I'm saying, "go deeper with what you started 10 years ago". That's not to say some of the new features and ideas aren't amazing and appreciated, they are! Just back to basics time.

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Re: Steinberg needs to realize the reality of professional audio work - if you don't work fast, you get fired

Post by Pablo1980 » Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:52 pm

Thanks Matthias, please just focus on the constructive requests, I imagine it would be hard for you to take us into account if you are always bashed.

About your question:

1. project window smart tool: yes it is like the upper and lower half, but if you look at this videos you will see that it could be so much more:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hoV1v1WjM0

(you can fly around with that tool, and with less clicks)

also, a good adition would Bezier curves in fades, much more quicker than opening the fades dialog as in studio one.

And you could look into the possibility to add an automation line over the track and not in the dropdown track, so, we can show and hide volume automation with a keycommand over the track...saves a lot of clicks.

Also, you could mouse wheel modifiers,
Shift+ctrl: wave zoom with the mouse wheel
Alt : vertical tracks size

You are right about the midi editor I think, the smart tool wouldn´t be of much use, maybe someone can chime in with ideas. Will get back to you with smart quantize if you want me to.

I would like to say that I think this is the way to go, with you engaging users and asking them about their workflow opinions, thanks for that.
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Re: Steinberg needs to realize the reality of professional audio work - if you don't work fast, you get fired

Post by Funkybot » Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:02 pm

I can do without the nag screens: I want to save a new default preset (which isn't even working right now), then "are you sure you want to overwrite the default settings for this plugin?" I know some of these prompts can be disabled in preferences, but in general, I find Cubase frequently interrupting to ask one unnecessary question or another. We have undo. Time to let go on the prompts.

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Re: Steinberg needs to realize the reality of professional audio work - if you don't work fast, you get fired

Post by Matthias Quellmann » Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:15 pm

Pablo1980 wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:52 pm

I would like to say that I think this is the way to go, with you engaging users and asking them about their workflow opinions, thanks for that.
We are asking these kind of questions to lots of different people during the development and conception phase, from Hollywood composers, billboard charts music producers or audio engineers to entry level users. This feedback is very important to us and we usually keep the questions open in the beginning. Most of the times exchanging ideas and explaining workflows is easier when you are sitting in front of Cubase in the studio environment of the producer or engineer than discussing feature requests in this forum with 20 users at the same time. Including some users with a very passionate discussion culture. But I appreciate your feedback very much and I really enjoy most of the conversations.
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Re: Steinberg needs to realize the reality of professional audio work - if you don't work fast, you get fired

Post by Rise n Fall » Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:25 pm

off topic - but - Good that you, Matthias, and Ed are in there.

Shine on.

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Re: Steinberg needs to realize the reality of professional audio work - if you don't work fast, you get fired

Post by ResonantMind » Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:33 pm

Matthias Quellmann wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:15 pm
Pablo1980 wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:52 pm

I would like to say that I think this is the way to go, with you engaging users and asking them about their workflow opinions, thanks for that.
We are asking these kind of questions to lots of different people during the development and conception phase, from Hollywood composers, billboard charts music producers or audio engineers to entry level users. This feedback is very important to us and we usually keep the questions open in the beginning. Most of the times exchanging ideas and explaining workflows is easier when you are sitting in front of Cubase in the studio environment of the producer or engineer than discussing feature requests in this forum with 20 users at the same time. Including some users with a very passionate discussion culture. But I appreciate your feedback very much and I really enjoy most of the conversations.
You might be asking all the people we are trying to get jobs with by impressing them with our Cubase workflow :lol:

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Re: Steinberg needs to realize the reality of professional audio work - if you don't work fast, you get fired

Post by In_Stereo » Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:44 pm

Matthias Quellmann wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:15 pm
Pablo1980 wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:52 pm

I would like to say that I think this is the way to go, with you engaging users and asking them about their workflow opinions, thanks for that.
We are asking these kind of questions to lots of different people during the development and conception phase, from Hollywood composers, billboard charts music producers or audio engineers to entry level users. This feedback is very important to us and we usually keep the questions open in the beginning. Most of the times exchanging ideas and explaining workflows is easier when you are sitting in front of Cubase in the studio environment of the producer or engineer than discussing feature requests in this forum with 20 users at the same time. Including some users with a very passionate discussion culture. But I appreciate your feedback very much and I really enjoy most of the conversations.
Hi Matthias and Ed, many thanks for your comments and for getting involved here. I love Cubase and use it for my professional composing, producing, and mixing work that I do for a living. And as you may or may not know I'm also pretty vocal on here about things that can be made significantly faster and more intuitive. I think people can get frustrated when things that have been requested for years don't happen as far as day-to-day workflow is concerned (i.e. not new features), and I also understand the complexity of programming. Here is a list of some important ones to me and to others here over the years:

1. Reduce the need for the Inspector by having, at the very least, volume and pan available directly on each track header in the Project Window. Going back and forth to the Inspector is a significant workflow block, and Pro Tools is a great example of the way it can be done so that you can stay directly on the project window tracks for so many things (volume, pan, inserts, sends, input, output), without needing to go to another Mixer or Inspector, which involves multiple clicks and navigation for each track compared to instant access right on the Project Window in the track headers.

2. Seeing whatever we've custom-named our Sends reflected in the automation lanes in the Project Window. In Cubase you can only see your sends in the automation lanes as Send 1, Send 2, etc, instead of what you've custom-named them. Currently you need to figure out what Send number in the automation lane corresponds to what send in the track you're automating, whereas doing is like other DAWs where the sends in the automation lanes are named what you actually name them is a significant difference with something so simple. Seems like it could be an easy fix since it's just representing whatever we've custom named the sends instead of the fixed "Send 1", "Send 2", etc., in the automation lanes?

3. Having the variaudio/hitpoints/etc. window be directly available in the project track lanes in the Project Window (not a separate window). This would increase workflow speed in a very significant way.

4. Be able to move channels in the mixer. Right now it's another workflow hit because you need to go back and forth between the mixer and the project window.

5. A multi-tool in the project window. Like Pro Tools and other DAWs, this helps eliminate lots of mouse and keyboard clicking. In Cubase 10, the new Variaudio 3 is a GREAT example of a wonderful implementation of this! Something with that kind of mindset in the Project Window would be a huge time and workflow saver. Pro Tools, Studio One, and Reaper are great examples of this.

Thanks again for listening!
Last edited by In_Stereo on Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:52 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Cubase 9.5, Trashcan Mac 6-core 3.7ghz, High Sierra 10.13.4 OS, AMD FirePro D300 Dual, 64 gig RAM, plugins galore, some hardware, a bunch of real instruments and synths, Apollo 8 TB, etc., etc., and two cats

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