How to start a slur in the middle of a tie?

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How to start a slur in the middle of a tie?

Post by filipedfs »

Is it possible to start or end a slur in the middle of a group of tied notes? Like this:

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Re: How to start a slur in the middle of a tie?

Post by Daniel at Steinberg »

No, it's not possible in general. You can control whether or not the slur should end on the first or last note of the tie chain, but you can't make it start or stop at an arbitrary point within the tie chain.

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Re: How to start a slur in the middle of a tie?

Post by Rob Tuley »

Put the two parts of the tie chain in different voices. Then you can make the slur end at the break between the voices.

To tie the notes in different voices together, you have to select both notes and press T, not just the first note
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Re: How to start a slur in the middle of a tie?

Post by filipedfs »

Daniel at Steinberg wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 3:52 pm
No, it's not possible in general. You can control whether or not the slur should end on the first or last note of the tie chain, but you can't make it start or stop at an arbitrary point within the tie chain.
I don't know if by "arbitrary point" you mean anywhere in the tie, but I meant start in the notes in the middle of the chain, as if it was not tied. Don't you think we should be able to do that? (see Behind Bars, pg. 113, second example, letter a)
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Re: How to start a slur in the middle of a tie?

Post by Thijs Boehme »

filipedfs wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 4:03 pm
Daniel at Steinberg wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 3:52 pm
No, it's not possible in general. You can control whether or not the slur should end on the first or last note of the tie chain, but you can't make it start or stop at an arbitrary point within the tie chain.
I don't know if by "arbitrary point" you mean anywhere in the tie, but I meant start in the notes in the middle of the chain, as if it was not tied. Don't you think we should be able to do that? (see Behind Bars, pg. 113, second example, letter a)
Your example from Gould only applies to ending ties 'early', not start them (and also at the end of the first tied bar, not later).
The example below that applies to starting slurs on tied notes, and only gives completely slurred (recommended) or at the end of the tie chain (acceptable), not somewhere inbetween.

As a musician, I'd be (briefly) confused by such a slur, and have only seen example (b) as far as I can remember (also for starting slurs).
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Re: How to start a slur in the middle of a tie?

Post by Daniel at Steinberg »

As I wrote, Dorico supports ending the tie either on the first note of a tie chain at the end of the slur, or extending the slur to the end of that tie chain (which is the default), but it doesn't support starting or ending a slur at an arbitrary note in a tie chain.

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Re: How to start a slur in the middle of a tie?

Post by filipedfs »

Rob Tuley wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 3:54 pm
Put the two parts of the tie chain in different voices. Then you can make the slur end at the break between the voices.

To tie the notes in different voices together, you have to select both notes and press T, not just the first note
Good idea!
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Re: How to start a slur in the middle of a tie?

Post by dankreider »

I know this works, but I'm curious as to the underlying behavior. I know Dorico interprets a tie chain as a single event... how does Dorico interpret ties that join different voices?
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Re: How to start a slur in the middle of a tie?

Post by filipedfs »

Daniel at Steinberg wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 6:13 pm
As I wrote, Dorico supports ending the tie either on the first note of a tie chain at the end of the slur, or extending the slur to the end of that tie chain (which is the default), but it doesn't support starting or ending a slur at an arbitrary note in a tie chain.
Daniel, sorry if I sounded impolite, it was not my intention. I sincerely just wanted to know your opinion, based on that example from Gould. I have Dorico since v.1 and I know all the effort you all put in the development of the software. I am a fan of your work.
Thijs Boehme wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 4:09 pm
Your example from Gould only applies to ending ties 'early', not start them (and also at the end of the first tied bar, not later).
The example below that applies to starting slurs on tied notes, and only gives completely slurred (recommended) or at the end of the tie chain (acceptable), not somewhere inbetween.

As a musician, I'd be (briefly) confused by such a slur, and have only seen example (b) as far as I can remember (also for starting slurs).
Yes, I know, but in this case I am trying to replicate a score that has the slur exactly as the example. Of course we can make workarounds, but I think it would be nice to have the ability to do it without them.

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(Villa-Lobos, Bachianas Brasileiras 4, G. Ricordi)
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Re: How to start a slur in the middle of a tie?

Post by dankreider »

filipedfs wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 6:47 pm
Of course we can make workarounds, but I think it would be nice to have the ability to do it without them.
Of course I can’t say with certainty, but I have a feeling this would require a complete re-thinking of how it ties and slurs function, potentially. And the workaround with two separate voices is really so incredibly easy, I don’t imagine “native” functionality would really make much of a difference!
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Re: How to start a slur in the middle of a tie?

Post by filipedfs »

dankreider wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:19 pm
Of course I can’t say with certainty, but I have a feeling this would require a complete re-thinking of how it ties and slurs function, potentially. And the workaround with two separate voices is really so incredibly easy, I don’t imagine “native” functionality would really make much of a difference!
Think about that: in this particular case, when they add the functionality to automatically create separate parts from just one stave of the full score, the note in the 1st or 2nd voice will make a huge difference. That is why I don't like workarounds.
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Re: How to start a slur in the middle of a tie?

Post by dankreider »

filipedfs wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:25 pm
dankreider wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:19 pm
Of course I can’t say with certainty, but I have a feeling this would require a complete re-thinking of how it ties and slurs function, potentially. And the workaround with two separate voices is really so incredibly easy, I don’t imagine “native” functionality would really make much of a difference!
Think about that: in this particular case, when they add the functionality to automatically create separate parts from just one stave of the full score, the note in the 1st or 2nd voice will make a huge difference. That is why I don't like workarounds.
Workarounds are unavoidable, regardless of how refined a notation software may be. There are too many competing conventions for any program to handle them all. My opinion.

I can see your point on this one, but it still seems to be an outlier. And we don’t yet know how condensing will function. Its entirely possible it won’t be strictly voice-dependent, but will display combined staves in some other dynamic way. Of course my comments on development priority and difficulty are purely speculative.
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Re: How to start a slur in the middle of a tie?

Post by Rob Tuley »

If a note with a tie chain is a single entity, there isn't any "fixed" place between the end points for a slur to attach to.

Suppose the first three bars of the attachment were somehow possible without artificially splitting the tie into two voices.

If you inserted a beat's rest before the notes, as in the second three bars, now where is the slur supposed to end? There isn't a "note" for it to end on any more.

If you split the tie into two parts in different voices, there is an "obvious" way to copy the notation starting at a different point in the bar. The result might not be what you would like to see, but at least it is well-defined!
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Re: How to start a slur in the middle of a tie?

Post by Rob Tuley »

filipedfs wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:25 pm
Think about that: in this particular case, when they add the functionality to automatically create separate parts from just one stave of the full score, the note in the 1st or 2nd voice will make a huge difference. That is why I don't like workarounds.
If I understand the clues that Daniel has given about how that would work, actually you have it backwards: it will create a single stave in the score from separate parts, not the other way round, so this objection doesn't apply.

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Re: How to start a slur in the middle of a tie?

Post by dankreider »

Rob Tuley wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:48 pm
If I understand the clues that Daniel has given about how that would work, actually you have it backwards: it will create a single stave in the score from separate parts, not the other way round, so this objection doesn't apply.
For condensing to be useful, I hope it would include the opposite as well. Many, including myself, prefer to work from a score that uses combined staves, and generate individual parts later.

I’m pretty confident “condensing” will include generating individual parts that are dynamic (like cues), and take into account score elements like “1.” or “a 2.”
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Re: How to start a slur in the middle of a tie?

Post by filipedfs »

dankreider wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:29 pm
Workarounds are unavoidable, regardless of how refined a notation software may be. There are too many competing conventions for any program to handle them all. My opinion.

I can see your point on this one, but it still seems to be an outlier. And we don’t yet know how condensing will function. Its entirely possible it won’t be strictly voice-dependent, but will display combined staves in some other dynamic way. Of course my comments on development priority and difficulty are purely speculative.
I agree with you.
Rob Tuley wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:39 pm
If a note with a tie chain is a single entity, there isn't any "fixed" place between the end points for a slur to attach to.

Suppose the first three bars of the attachment were somehow possible without artificially splitting the tie into two voices.

If you inserted a beat's rest before the notes, as in the second three bars, now where is the slur supposed to end? There isn't a "note" for it to end on any more.
I see your point.
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Re: How to start a slur in the middle of a tie?

Post by Rob Tuley »

Dan, we both know we are guessing exactly how it will work.

But FWIW right from the first time I heard about this, my thought was "Ah, this is going to work the same way as the "partCombine" function in Lilypond, but hopefully without some of the quirkiness - for example Lilypond sometimes decides to automatically create an "a2" region in the score that is just one note long.

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Re: How to start a slur in the middle of a tie?

Post by hamhm3 »

I'm guessing that in Filipe's Villa-Lobos example, the slur is drawn that way because the engraver didn't want to continue the slur across the system break for some reason. That's the only reason I can think of for doing it like that, but I could be wrong of course.
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Re: How to start a slur in the middle of a tie?

Post by dankreider »

Rob Tuley wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:05 pm
Dan, we both know we are guessing exactly how it will work.
Oh, for sure. I just have a hunch there are a significant number of users (the majority of arrangers and composers, I wager) who work the way I do: write the music condensed, and expand later for players. But as you say, it's speculative.
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Re: How to start a slur in the middle of a tie?

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dankreider wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:19 pm
And we don’t yet know how condensing will function. Its entirely possible it won’t be strictly voice-dependent
I hope it won't just be voice dependent. Especially for keyboard entry it's often useful to write parts in a single voice.

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Re: How to start a slur in the middle of a tie?

Post by Daniel at Steinberg »

Allow me to clear up the speculation about how condensing will work in Dorico, as there's no great mystery: you will enter the music for each player individually, and Dorico will produce the condensed staff. You will not be able to input the music already condensed, as it were: for example, in the case of writing for a pair of solo flutes, you cannot input onto the staff for "Flutes 1 & 2". You can only input separately onto the "Flute 1" staff and onto the "Flute 2" staff, and the contents of the "Flutes 1 & 2" staff are completely dynamic.

The reason for this approach is that it is impossible, in the general case, to correctly discern what the complete and unambiguous music is for each individual player from music entered condensed. I don't use the word "impossible" lightly: this is the conclusion we have come to after thinking deeply about this problem space for years. The only way to be sure that you can produce both a correct condensation and correct individual parts is for you, the user, to specify the contents of each part. Dorico can then determine how to produce the best and most efficient condensation.

If inputting the music condensed is important to you, then you'll need to input the music for your (say) two solo flutes onto one of the solo flute staves as dyads or using multiple voices, or whatever you like, and then explode it out onto the two solo staves in order for Dorico to produce the automatic condensation. We plan to provide some tools to try to make it easy to input music for both flutes at once onto their respective solo staves, e.g. the ability to stretch the caret over both staves and then play single notes and dyads on your MIDI keyboard, which Dorico will interpret sensibly (i.e. unisons will go into both flutes, dyads will be split between them), but you simply will not be able to input the music in its condensed form.

The payoff for doing it our way will be profoundly worth it. You won't have to worry about the disposition of voices in the source material. You won't have to worry about layout of the score, and performing the mental gymnastics in advance to work out when you can and can't condense the material onto a smaller number of staves for the width of a whole system. You won't have to manage any of the staves yourself. You won't have to worry about staff labelling, or labelling the changes between unison/solo passages. You will be able to just as easily condense four, six or eight horns as you can two flutes.

Like some other things in Dorico, the newness of the approach will require that you give up some of your current habits in the service of saving you a lot of time down the line.

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Re: How to start a slur in the middle of a tie?

Post by steveparker »

That's a lot of things to not have to worry about. It all sounds fantastic!

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Re: How to start a slur in the middle of a tie?

Post by DaddyO »

kudos for thinking things through deeply and thoroughly.
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Re: How to start a slur in the middle of a tie?

Post by dbudde »

Re: condensed staves:

Will a condensed staff be visually unambiguous once it is created as to which notes are played by each player?

Will the condense operation be reversible (i.e., can I create two uncondensed staves from a single condensed staff of two flutes)?

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Re: How to start a slur in the middle of a tie?

Post by Daniel at Steinberg »

dbudde wrote:Will a condensed staff be visually unambiguous once it is created as to which notes are played by each player?
Yes. Dorico will only condense the music if the result will be unambiguous.
dbudde wrote:Will the condense operation be reversible (i.e., can I create two uncondensed staves from a single condensed staff of two flutes)?
You won't need to do this, since the uncondensed source staves will always be available. You can either disable condensation entirely for the layout, or switch to galley view (where only the source and not the condensed staves will appear), or have another layout that shows only the uncondensed staves, or indeed (we expect) create a manual condensation change event at a particular spot that will tell Dorico not to condense a particular passage.

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