[FR] Implementation of EBU R128 features

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[FR] Implementation of EBU R128 features

Post by Domilik » Mon Nov 28, 2011 4:44 pm

Due to the fact that this will be the common basis for media post production, does anybody know if Steinberg plans to implement LU loudness measuring into the next major update?

It would be great to add LUFS, LRA and TPL to the audio statistic-tool (rightclick/audio)!

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Re: [FR] Implementation of EBU R128 features

Post by Fredo » Mon Nov 28, 2011 5:21 pm

We (The betatesters who work in Post) have been bombarding The Powers That Be with requests to implement R128 into the next Nuendo version. They really can't say that they weren't aware of this new standard. :D

FWIW, I am a big fan of R128, with a little luck it will be a turning point for the quality of audio.

Fredo

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Re: [FR] Implementation of EBU R128 features

Post by MattiasNYC » Mon Nov 28, 2011 6:14 pm

+1 on integrating this.
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Re: [FR] Implementation of EBU R128 features

Post by Rucareanu » Mon Nov 28, 2011 8:54 pm

+1 Great news!
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Re: [FR] Implementation of EBU R128 features

Post by Oliver.Lucas » Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:52 pm

10 bump=bump+1
20 goto 10

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Re: [FR] Implementation of EBU R128 features

Post by Guest » Tue Nov 29, 2011 2:00 pm

+10000....

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Re: [FR] Implementation of EBU R128 features

Post by Big K » Tue Nov 29, 2011 3:45 pm

Is there a light at the end of the tunnel?

+1

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Re: [FR] Implementation of EBU R128 features

Post by neilwilkes » Wed Nov 30, 2011 2:47 pm

This would be a wonderful addition.
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Re: [FR] Implementation of EBU R128 features

Post by Fredo » Wed Nov 30, 2011 3:29 pm

Even better would be if R128 would be enforced in every contry, on every continent for all media.

Italy & Holland already are (partly) on "R128", Germany and Austria start February next year, with full enforcement by the end of 2012. France television also next year along with the US/Canada.

This is the first time that I am optimistic about the future of the quality of our work.
Until now, it just went downhill.

Fredo

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Re: [FR] Implementation of EBU R128 features

Post by MattiasNYC » Wed Nov 30, 2011 4:41 pm

I've already started delivering based on the US CALM act even though I guess it isn't technically in effect until 2012. I'm liking it.
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Re: [FR] Implementation of EBU R128 features

Post by Domilik » Wed Nov 30, 2011 7:09 pm

...to those of you who are already working with R128:

How did it change your workflow? Are you checking short-term and medium integrated LU all the time during mixing, or do you just work with more dynamic range and do checking/normalisation at the end?
I would be interested in some experiences!
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Re: [FR] Implementation of EBU R128 features

Post by Fredo » Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:18 pm

The only thing we have been doing is adapting the fixed listening level.
For cinema we monitor @ 85 or 83 dB, and don't care about the meters.
We did the same for working in R128. We set our monitor level and just mixed as we thought it sounded right.
When the end result was below or above, we adjusted our monitoring level, until we hit 0 LUFS.
FWIW, it wasn't too far away from the levels we used to mix to for cinema.
So, in a way, not much has changed ....


Fredo

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Re: [FR] Implementation of EBU R128 features

Post by MattiasNYC » Wed Nov 30, 2011 10:10 pm

Domilik wrote:...to those of you who are already working with R128:

How did it change your workflow? Are you checking short-term and medium integrated LU all the time during mixing, or do you just work with more dynamic range and do checking/normalisation at the end?
I would be interested in some experiences!
I've been mixing by ear and a Dorrough meter for quite some time. I kinda know if my mix is loud or dynamic. Just so happens that the CALM act numbers sit fairly well for me. Though I have to admit my dynamic range has diminished. This is for mostly short duration stuff though, like commercials and infomercials. For programming (lifestyle tv for example) I'm leaving a bit more dynamics, but deliver the same average.

So anyways, I've switched from hardware Dorrough's to plugs and adjusted the meter scale and monitoring a bit. So the way I work nowadays is I do the dialog edit / cleanup, ride levels to sit evenly throughout the material, often slap a compressor on the dialog bus (post-rides), and adjust the output so that it sits at -24dBFS on the Dolby Meter. I'm usually not off by more than a couple of dB's.

And then for final rides I actually do keep my eye on the meters (Durrough and Dolby) and just adjust when necessary.

So yeah, I do watch meters more than before.
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Re: [FR] Implementation of EBU R128 features

Post by Fredo » Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:19 am

Lydiot wrote:So yeah, I do watch meters more than before.
(Talking about R128) Really, you shouldn't.
Once you have set your monitor levels correct, you can blindly mix by ear.
Even if your mix ends up a few LUFS's lower or higher than the required -23 LUFS, the only thing you need to do is normalize the complete mix and you are done.
Unless there are parts in your mix you're not happy with, and you want to re-do those, there really is no need to "remix 'till you get the number right".

Fredo

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Re: [FR] Implementation of EBU R128 features

Post by Oliver.Lucas » Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:42 am

Fredo wrote: Even if your mix ends up a few LUFS's lower or higher than the required -23 LUFS, the only thing you need to do is normalize the complete mix and you are done.

Fredo
And that should be supported by Nuendo. And since the whole movement seems to speed up in that direction I think that Steinberg should move faster than waiting for the next big update...
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Re: [FR] Implementation of EBU R128 features

Post by MattiasNYC » Thu Dec 01, 2011 4:46 pm

Fredo wrote:
Lydiot wrote:So yeah, I do watch meters more than before.
(Talking about R128) Really, you shouldn't.
Once you have set your monitor levels correct, you can blindly mix by ear.
Even if your mix ends up a few LUFS's lower or higher than the required -23 LUFS, the only thing you need to do is normalize the complete mix and you are done.
Unless there are parts in your mix you're not happy with, and you want to re-do those, there really is no need to "remix 'till you get the number right".

Fredo
I was talking about the CALM act. Based on the delivery specs I've seen I'm supposed to hit -24 +/- 2dB, on average, over the entire content. If I mix by ear and my dynamic range is too wide and average too low my peaks will be too hot when normalizing. Unless I squash them.

Either way: you mix your way in Belgium and I'll mix my way in NYC.
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Re: [FR] Implementation of EBU R128 features

Post by Fredo » Thu Dec 01, 2011 5:15 pm

Lydiot wrote: I was talking about the CALM act. Based on the delivery specs I've seen I'm supposed to hit -24 +/- 2dB, on average, over the entire content. If I mix by ear and my dynamic range is too wide and average too low my peaks will be too hot when normalizing. Unless I squash them.

Either way: you mix your way in Belgium and I'll mix my way in NYC.
Don't want to make this an argument, but you answered to Domilik saying:
...to those of you who are already working with R128:
And I commented to your answer:
(Talking about R128) Really, you shouldn't.
So forgive me if i was confused, and that I didn't notice that you were talking about something completely difefrent than R128. I was assuming that CALM was somewhat related or similar to R128 and/or the Discovery specs.


Fredo

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Re: [FR] Implementation of EBU R128 features

Post by TimoWildenhain » Thu Dec 01, 2011 6:09 pm

Hi,

yes, we're aware of this and are working on an appropriate integration in Nuendo.

Thanks,
Timo
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Re: [FR] Implementation of EBU R128 features

Post by Domilik » Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:02 pm

TimoWildenhain wrote:yes, we're aware of this and are working on an appropriate integration in Nuendo.
Since Nuendo is Master of Offline Processing it would be great to get a extended audio statistic/normalisation tool, where we could get the R128 values via rightclick and fast processing. At the moment I just know realtime-plugins...?
Bredo wrote:Here's a link to a free ware R128 meter by Audiocation:https://www.audiocation.de/en/plugin
In my first R128-tests I use this loudness meter: http://www.toneboosters.com/tb-ebuloudness/
It's working great, it's just a very small fee to pay, and it has a much better GUI compared to the one of audiocation.
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Re: [FR] Implementation of EBU R128 features

Post by Domilik » Thu Dec 01, 2011 9:59 pm

Fredo wrote:We set our monitor level and just mixed as we thought it sounded right.
When the end result was below or above, we adjusted our monitoring level, until we hit 0 LUFS.
FWIW, it wasn't too far away from the levels we used to mix to for cinema.
That's a very interesting approach, I will test it here, would be great if it will fit into workflow so easily...
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Re: [FR] Implementation of EBU R128 features

Post by Tumppi Järnefelt » Fri Dec 02, 2011 10:41 am

Domilik wrote:
TimoWildenhain wrote:yes, we're aware of this and are working on an appropriate integration in Nuendo.
Since Nuendo is Master of Offline Processing it would be great to get a extended audio statistic/normalisation tool, where we could get the R128 values via rightclick and fast processing. At the moment I just know realtime-plugins...?
Bredo wrote:Here's a link to a free ware R128 meter by Audiocation:https://www.audiocation.de/en/plugin
In my first R128-tests I use this loudness meter: http://www.toneboosters.com/tb-ebuloudness/
It's working great, it's just a very small fee to pay, and it has a much better GUI compared to the one of audiocation.

Spot on!

And Timo: Great news!

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Re: [FR] Implementation of EBU R128 features

Post by MattiasNYC » Fri Dec 02, 2011 5:43 pm

Fredo wrote:
Lydiot wrote: I was talking about the CALM act. Based on the delivery specs I've seen I'm supposed to hit -24 +/- 2dB, on average, over the entire content. If I mix by ear and my dynamic range is too wide and average too low my peaks will be too hot when normalizing. Unless I squash them.

Either way: you mix your way in Belgium and I'll mix my way in NYC.
Don't want to make this an argument, but you answered to Domilik saying:
...to those of you who are already working with R128:
And I commented to your answer:
(Talking about R128) Really, you shouldn't.
So forgive me if i was confused, and that I didn't notice that you were talking about something completely difefrent than R128. I was assuming that CALM was somewhat related or similar to R128 and/or the Discovery specs.


Fredo
It's not really "completely different". Apart from the delivery requirement metering using various algorithms are tools and tools only. I use the tools you use in my way. I'm just a bit fed up with people telling others how to use their tools. There's only one correct way to use any tool: The way to get the job done conveniently, accurately and if possible enjoyably..... All else is just reactionary nonsense....
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Re: [FR] Implementation of EBU R128 features

Post by Fredo » Fri Dec 02, 2011 7:56 pm

Lydiot wrote:I'm just a bit fed up with people telling others how to use their tools. There's only one correct way to use any tool: The way to get the job done conveniently, accurately and if possible enjoyably..... All else is just reactionary nonsense....
I'm not following you here ...
When you need to deliver content according specific spes, then there is no "alternative" way to use the tools.
R128 is a broadcast spec, so anyone delivering content needs to make sure that his "master" is 100% within those specs.
So R128 implies that the audio content is delivered @ -23 LUFS, so their is no other way to use the tools (=R128 or LUFS metering) so they reflect *exactly* what the delivery requirements are.

Apparently there's something I am missing from your statement, but how do you want to use your tools -in this case LUFS metering- in a way that suits your "free interpretation of the standard", while still being correct to the delivery standards.


(Don't get me wrong, I am not looking for an argument -please not-, I'm just trying to understand what you are saying.)

Fredo

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Re: [FR] Implementation of EBU R128 features

Post by MattiasNYC » Fri Dec 02, 2011 8:23 pm

Fredo wrote:
Lydiot wrote:I'm just a bit fed up with people telling others how to use their tools. There's only one correct way to use any tool: The way to get the job done conveniently, accurately and if possible enjoyably..... All else is just reactionary nonsense....
I'm not following you here ...
When you need to deliver content according specific spes, then there is no "alternative" way to use the tools.
R128 is a broadcast spec, so anyone delivering content needs to make sure that his "master" is 100% within those specs.
So R128 implies that the audio content is delivered @ -23 LUFS, so their is no other way to use the tools (=R128 or LUFS metering) so they reflect *exactly* what the delivery requirements are.

Apparently there's something I am missing from your statement, but how do you want to use your tools -in this case LUFS metering- in a way that suits your "free interpretation of the standard", while still being correct to the delivery standards.


(Don't get me wrong, I am not looking for an argument -please not-, I'm just trying to understand what you are saying.)

Fredo
Well, for example:

Say that the specification says an average level of -24dB LKFS, +/-2dB, over a certain period of time.
Say now that you have a metering plugin that measures exactly that.

You could mix this "to your ears" in your calibrated room that you know, and get a mix that you're happy with. THEN you go and evaluate your file, see where the average is, and adjust via an offline gain-change (that thus affects the entire file equally).

The "tool", in this case the meter, is used by you retroactively, to see what you mixed.

I can reach exactly the same equally "legal" result by watching this meter as I mix. The result is the same, and average level of -24dB LKFS.

Thus, the tool we both need is used differently: Realtime versus Offline.
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Re: [FR] Implementation of EBU R128 features

Post by Fredo » Fri Dec 02, 2011 8:34 pm

Bredo wrote:The whole point with R-128, as i understand it, is that the closer you are to the recommended -23 LUFS, the less the distributor can/or will alter the level they distribute through their "net".
[...]

It's actually very simple.
R128 is a delivery spec. If your content is not delivered correctly, the distributor will "normalize" it to the spec.
Older -brickwall limited- content will sound not near as good as content mixed without limiting or heavy compression.
Though, this content will also be "leveled" according R128 before broadcast.

Once the specs are enforced by the broadcast station, everyone who delivers content will have to make sure that the content is according specs. (R128). If not, the broadcaster will "normalize" it so it fits the specs.

The good thing about R128 is that there is a loudness measuring algo build in, which fits more or less the Fletcher-Manson curve and which produces a fairly objective measurement of loudness.
In the end it is comparable with mixing for cinema. You have tons of headroom (around 20dB if I am not mistaking), which means that these gunshots and explosions can be loud, while dialog can stay at a reasonable, comfortable listening level. So as soon as you start to mix by ear (dialog on a comfortable level), then everything falls in place. And even if your mix is a few LUFS below or above specs, after normalizing (which would be the same as adjusting your monitoring levels) your mix will be -exactly the same as before, though over the entire length of the program material a tad louder or quiter. In other words, this is a delivery spec which encourages everyone to make realistic sounding mixes and penalizes everyone who search for "being louder than the competition".

From what I have heard, heavely compressed and limited commercials end up about as loud as non-limited mixes; however the inherent "audio quality" of the heavely limited commercials becomes clearly sub-standard. As it has always been ... except for those who think that louder is better.


Fredo

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