Shortcut/menu option to lock all frames in a layout?

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Shortcut/menu option to lock all frames in a layout?

Post by high5ths » Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:34 pm

I would like to lock all the frames of my layout. Is there an easier way than manually Cmd-clicking an item on every page of the layout and then using the lock command?
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Re: Shortcut/menu option to lock all frames in a layout?

Post by dankreider » Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:42 pm

Click on the first note and use Select More (Ctrl/Cmd-Shift-A) until the whole flow is selected, then click “Lock Frame” once.
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Re: Shortcut/menu option to lock all frames in a layout?

Post by high5ths » Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:26 pm

Thanks, Dan, but I've got 16 flows... And I find sometimes if I don't lock all the pages at once, odd things can happen in ripple effects. It doesn't seem possible to use the "Select more" command when multiple flows are selected. (What about if I had hundreds of flows?)
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Re: Shortcut/menu option to lock all frames in a layout?

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Tue Jun 25, 2019 8:11 pm

You can only select material in a single flow. Perhaps in the future we can add a feature to lock the frames in an entire layout even without a selection.

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Re: Shortcut/menu option to lock all frames in a layout?

Post by high5ths » Tue Jun 25, 2019 8:15 pm

Thanks for considering it, Daniel!
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Re: Shortcut/menu option to lock all frames in a layout?

Post by benwiggy » Wed Jun 26, 2019 7:58 am

high5ths wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:26 pm
And I find sometimes if I don't lock all the pages at once, odd things can happen in ripple effects.
Can you give an example of this? Generally, I don't lock any systems or Frames, except where I specifically need to force a break. I find music in Dorico tends to stays put, (much more solidly than my previous notation program, where you had to nail down everything to stop it from flying away).

One of the things that's nice about not locking down the pages is that then you can change the Note Spacing in order to fit the music with more control than using breaks.
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Re: Shortcut/menu option to lock all frames in a layout?

Post by high5ths » Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:16 pm

benwiggy wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 7:58 am
Can you give an example of this?
The "ripple effects" I mention are tricky to demonstrate. I was referring to a strange behavior I've seen: sometimes after finishing my part layout, if I step through each page, locking one frame results in a measure/system moving in a *different* frame.I have seen things jump around once or twice. (I was locking pages in the first flute part and suddenly my page turns didn't work on later pages.) My guess is that it's when a system is just on the cusp of being too full. I found that cmd-clicking on an item on every page at once and locking simultaneously prevented these movements.

Here's an example I found, just for you. This part layout is not close to done (please don't judge it), but this shows my point. Page 3 currently ends with the end of the second scene. I lock page 2, which for some reason causes the bottom system of page 3 to jump to the next page. (If I select items on page 2 & 3 and then lock the layout, no system moves.) It also shows a strangeness I've seen: locking a page can cause individual systems on that page to respace slightly. (Look at page 2, systems 4 or 7, and watch them move when I lock the layout.) That doesn't seem like it should happen.

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I realize my original message could be misconstrued. I only lock the layout of a part when I'm done making the layout, not in the middle of the process. My current workflow is to go through a part and work through the layout, mostly using Note Spacing changes. I absolutely love the controlled, consistent way Note Spacing changes affect the score. For some movements, a ratio of 1.3 or even 1.2 gives great results (if there is an extreme difference between the smallest and lowest note values in a passage, lowering the ratio produces a less extreme spacing difference between the note values, which can result in improved spacing); other times, lowering the space allotted to a quarter note is perfect (for example, in a long passage of half- and whole-notes). There are occasionally times when it's easiest to just add a single system or frame break (e.g., to fix an orphan cue measure) but Note Spacing changes are definitely my primary tool.

But when I'm done laying out the part, I want to do everything I can do keep the music where it is. This score will have ~1000 pages of parts, so if something moves later, it's likely I won't see it happen or even notice it until final proof-reading. You're right that Dorico is much better than other programs when it comes to things moving around, but it's not immune... And while I hope I have all my Engraving Preferences *exactly* as I want them, there's always the chance I might want to tweak something, and it's exactly in those sorts of calculations that Dorico might reflow a measure from one system to the next, or from one page to the next. I've seen more than one person on the forum comment that they changed something random in their score, and suddenly noticed a part layout was different than they left it. I know it's not likely, but again, with 1000 pages of parts, I want to feel as secure as possible that my page turns are going to remain right.
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Re: Shortcut/menu option to lock all frames in a layout?

Post by pianoleo » Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:23 pm

Have you tried locking the pages in reverse order?
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Re: Shortcut/menu option to lock all frames in a layout?

Post by benwiggy » Wed Jun 26, 2019 6:21 pm

high5ths wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:16 pm
Here's an example I found, just for you.
Aw, thanks! :D That is weird. Not only that System Breaks affect the system spacing, but that seemingly unaffected systems are somehow .. affected.

It would be interesting to see what one of the team says, and whether it's a bug that needs fixed.
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Re: Shortcut/menu option to lock all frames in a layout?

Post by dankreider » Wed Jun 26, 2019 6:26 pm

pianoleo wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:23 pm
Have you tried locking the pages in reverse order?
1000, 999, 998, 997... :geek:
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Re: Shortcut/menu option to lock all frames in a layout?

Post by high5ths » Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:03 pm

pianoleo wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:23 pm
Have you tried locking the pages in reverse order?
(LOL at Dan, thanks for that.) I just tried the reverse order trick, for pianoleo :). Ta-da, it has some of the same issues. Looks like the problem here is that when locking a page, Dorico *unchecks* the "Wait for next frame break" property of the *following* page, and doesn't even fix it with an Undo. In this example, we see pages 33, 34, and 35 (sorry for the terrible quality; I'm not good at making GIFs). I've already locked page 35. I lock page 34, and when I lock page 33, Dorico ignores the "Wait for next frame break" on page 34 (and to my surprise, it still appears checked when I click on it!). When I undo (I have to do it a couple times because of my selections), page 33 unlocks but the "Wait" property does not revert to its previous condition. I undo enough to unlock page 34, and that fixes things.

So, if I'm understanding this right:
1) Dorico should respect the "Wait for next frame break" property of the page-after-locked-page if it is already checked. If there is no frame break, it makes sense it would add a frame break with that property unchecked, but don't mess with it if already checked.
2) The "undo" that unlocks page 33 should restore page 34 to its previous condition, but it doesn't.

I'm going to keep locking all the pages at once...

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Re: Shortcut/menu option to lock all frames in a layout?

Post by pianoleo » Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:15 pm

I think this is exactly the same issue that people run into when they try to use the "Make Into System" and "Make Into Frame" buttons on material that already includes System Breaks and/or Frame Breaks. Dorico puts a Frame Break at the start of the selection, and another at the end of the selection, and tells the first one to wait for the next one. It doesn't respect any Frame Break that already exists at the end of the selection. The answer, at least for now, is to NOT use the "Lock" buttons if you've already got Frame Breaks. If you've started doing the work manually, finish it manually.
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Re: Shortcut/menu option to lock all frames in a layout?

Post by high5ths » Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:13 pm

pianoleo wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:15 pm
The answer, at least for now, is to NOT use the "Lock" buttons if you've already got Frame Breaks. If you've started doing the work manually, finish it manually.
Sure, that's one answer. Another is to lock everything at once... :)
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Re: Shortcut/menu option to lock all frames in a layout?

Post by pianoleo » Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:18 pm

high5ths wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:13 pm
pianoleo wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:15 pm
The answer, at least for now, is to NOT use the "Lock" buttons if you've already got Frame Breaks. If you've started doing the work manually, finish it manually.
Sure, that's one answer. Another is to lock everything at once... :)
In multi-flow projects where flows can start midway down a page, that isn't actually possible, is it?
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Re: Shortcut/menu option to lock all frames in a layout?

Post by high5ths » Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:20 pm

Yes, it is. You can can command-click on an element on each page, even in different flows. (I find multi-measure rests to be the easiest to click.) You just can't use any of the "Select more" or "Select all" commands to get things in different flows.'

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Re: Shortcut/menu option to lock all frames in a layout?

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:42 am

I've made a note of this problem (i.e. that Dorico needlessly replaces a break at the end of the locked passage, thus unhelpfully wiping out its properties) and we'll try to address this in future.

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Re: Shortcut/menu option to lock all frames in a layout?

Post by pianoleo » Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:45 am

Thanks Daniel.
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Re: Shortcut/menu option to lock all frames in a layout?

Post by Vaughan Schlepp » Tue Jul 02, 2019 4:16 pm

Perhaps a silly question, but why does the spacing change as a result of adding only system locks? It looks as though several, but not all, of the MM rests increase in size. I would find that kind of thing disconcerting if I hadn't requested Dorico to do it.
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Re: Shortcut/menu option to lock all frames in a layout?

Post by dankreider » Tue Jul 02, 2019 4:41 pm

Vaughan Schlepp wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 4:16 pm
Perhaps a silly question, but why does the spacing change as a result of adding only system locks? It looks as though several, but not all, of the MM rests increase in size. I would find that kind of thing disconcerting if I hadn't requested Dorico to do it.
Agreed, I know several variations of this have been reported. I’m hopeful to see this behavior tightened up in version 3. It all falls under the category of “confidence that the things I want changed will change, and the things I don’t want changed will stay the same.”
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Re: Shortcut/menu option to lock all frames in a layout?

Post by high5ths » Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:15 pm

Daniel at Steinberg wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:42 am
I've made a note of this problem (i.e. that Dorico needlessly replaces a break at the end of the locked passage, thus unhelpfully wiping out its properties) and we'll try to address this in future.
Thanks, Daniel. I might also add that if I have a Frame Break set at the top of a page with the "Staff labels" property changed, and then I lock that page, the Staff labels property gets turned off; it seems like if whatever properties I've changed should remain in effect even after locking the page. This is also true if I've changed the staff size in that Frame Break—I guess Lock Frame just replaces my frame break wholesale. This is not ideal.

Thanks.
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