hide empty staves menu

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asbefore
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hide empty staves menu

Post by asbefore » Thu Jun 27, 2019 4:23 am

hi there,

three small things:

1) If the "Hide Empty Staves" choice is set to "Never" then theoretically you shouldn't be able to select "Allow individual staves of multi-staff instruments to be hidden", or select any players to be "excluded" below -- since, after all, the setting is set to "Never", and you can't have exceptions to "Never" -- unless ---

2) As I've said on another thread, it's sometimes useful to have a single stave of a multi-stave instrument appear in a full score, even if it's resting, I've worked with conductors who prefer to have a page of rests rather than a score which jumps around wildly with stave count from page to page. In this case, I wish I could set "hide empty staves" to "Never" *but* also allow for multi-stave instruments to have individual staves appear. A good example would be if you have an orchestral score with marimba, piano, celesta and harp, all of whom are resting at odd intervals. Hiding one of their empty grand staves could save a lot of room.

3) It'd be handy to have a "select all" and "select none" button at the "Players excluded from Hide Empty Staves" dialogue. My rule now is to select all instruments except percussion, which takes quite a lot of individual player clicking in an orchestral template.

Thank you kindly!

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Romanos401
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Re: hide empty staves menu

Post by Romanos401 » Thu Jun 27, 2019 1:59 pm

I can feel it already. Tantacrul will mention #1 when he makes his Dorico roast video. Mark my words, lol. (Although, tbh, it doesn't bother me. That way if you change from never to one of the other options the options are still selected and ready. It would be much worse if whenever you clicked never and then changed your mind you lost all your previous settings.)

As for 2, this seems a bit of an odd one to me... I understand saving room, but by the same token, (and I'm sure there is room for disagreement here) if I was conducting and suddenly there were a bunch of single stave instruments where my eye was expecting grand staff instruments, I'd find it just as jarring as if there were rapid shifts in score layouts. I think this is a bit of an all or nothing game... either you hide empty staves, or you don't (unless there is a really extended period where the instruments are silent).

Regardless, hopefully V3 will bring more control over when staves can be hidden or not (perhaps with a system like the current signposts for instance).

I'm sure plenty of people would appreciate a select all/none.
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dankreider
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Re: hide empty staves menu

Post by dankreider » Thu Jun 27, 2019 2:00 pm

Romanos401 wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 1:59 pm
I can feel it already. Tantacrul will mention #1 when he makes his Dorico roast video.
As a Dorico fanboy, I'm very much looking forward to this...
Dan Kreider

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Romanos401
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Re: hide empty staves menu

Post by Romanos401 » Thu Jun 27, 2019 2:08 pm

dankreider wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 2:00 pm
Romanos401 wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 1:59 pm
I can feel it already. Tantacrul will mention #1 when he makes his Dorico roast video.
As a Dorico fanboy, I'm very much looking forward to this...
So am I. I'm also terrified, lol. Honestly, I think his roasts are actually pretty fair/insightful. His Sib. shred was utterly hysterical, and while I thought the one on Musescore was funny too ("your time will come Dorico... laugh while you can...") he actually made really good points. His other videos are interesting too. You can tell he puts quite a lot of thought into most of them.
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asbefore
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Re: hide empty staves menu

Post by asbefore » Thu Jun 27, 2019 4:55 pm

Romanos401 wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 1:59 pm
I can feel it already. Tantacrul will mention #1 when he makes his Dorico roast video.
The joke is lost on me! What are these videos you speak of?

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Re: hide empty staves menu

Post by dankreider » Thu Jun 27, 2019 4:57 pm

Dan Kreider

Orchestration, transcription, engraving
Dorico training for individuals and teams
www.dankreider.com
---
Dorico 3; Dell Precision 7520, Xeon quad-core, 32 GB RAM, Windows 10

asbefore
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Re: hide empty staves menu

Post by asbefore » Thu Jun 27, 2019 8:30 pm

dankreider wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 4:57 pm
https://youtu.be/dKx1wnXClcI
wow.. Feldman's Yeast!
timeless -- woke me up real good. Thanks, Dan!

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Re: hide empty staves menu

Post by asbefore » Thu Jun 27, 2019 8:32 pm

Romanos401 wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 1:59 pm
As for 2, this seems a bit of an odd one to me... I understand saving room, but by the same token, (and I'm sure there is room for disagreement here) if I was conducting and suddenly there were a bunch of single stave instruments where my eye was expecting grand staff instruments, I'd find it just as jarring as if there were rapid shifts in score layouts. I think this is a bit of an all or nothing game... either you hide empty staves, or you don't (unless there is a really extended period where the instruments are silent).
For what it's worth, in orchestral arrangements of things, 1-staved versions of grand-staff instruments are more prevalent than not. It's good to have the option - with Marimba and Celesta especially, but with harp and piano sometimes, too.

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Romanos401
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Re: hide empty staves menu

Post by Romanos401 » Thu Jun 27, 2019 9:05 pm

Well, I admit that I don't deal with orchestral scores very much; in fact, it's been a while.
🎵 Full-time Sacred Musician, Organist, Choral Conductor, Composer (Adjunct Organ Instructor, Goshen College)
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Rob Tuley
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Re: hide empty staves menu

Post by Rob Tuley » Thu Jun 27, 2019 9:17 pm

Romanos401 wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 2:08 pm
("your time will come Dorico... laugh while you can...")
Here's one to activate his UI antennae. Spot the "missing" clickable area on the text editing dialog. Actually it's not missing, it's just very hard to see something that is 100% transparent. And if you can't see it, how do you know it's there if you are a beginner? :)
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Bollen
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Re: hide empty staves menu

Post by Bollen » Thu Jun 27, 2019 11:31 pm

dankreider wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 4:57 pm
https://youtu.be/dKx1wnXClcI
Oh my god that was hilarious!!! Thank you for introducing us to this...

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mipi
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Re: hide empty staves menu

Post by mipi » Fri Jun 28, 2019 8:09 am

I can not imagine a better solution as in "other" software - select staves you would like to hide or to show and...hide or show them. There is no need to reinvent a bicycle..Would be great if Dorico could do it one day as well..

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Re: hide empty staves menu

Post by steveparker » Fri Jun 28, 2019 11:24 am

mipi wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 8:09 am
I can not imagine a better solution as in "other" software - select staves you would like to hide or to show and...hide or show them. There is no need to reinvent a bicycle..Would be great if Dorico could do it one day as well..
100% agree with this. Dorico is far slower and less flexible than Finale for this.

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Re: hide empty staves menu

Post by Rob Tuley » Fri Jun 28, 2019 2:10 pm

I guess you have never got in a tangle in Sibelius when the system breaks have moved, and half the bars on a staff are marked as "hidden" and the other half are not.

That may not be a problem until later (when you have forgotten about the hidden bars) you do another edit that moves the system breaks again, and suddenly staves start appearing and disappearing on their own, regardless of whether they have any music on them!

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Re: hide empty staves menu

Post by steveparker » Fri Jun 28, 2019 4:21 pm

Finale is capable of the same tangle.. I tend to hide staves from front to back after system breaks.

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Re: hide empty staves menu

Post by Rob Tuley » Fri Jun 28, 2019 4:39 pm

Not to mention the vertical spacing difference between showing and hiding a completely invisible staff (no staff lines, no notes, no whole bar rests, no bar lines...)

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Re: hide empty staves menu

Post by steveparker » Fri Jun 28, 2019 5:23 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hZxo96x48A
35:25
Maybe Sibelius could have a 'help' button that takes you to the Dorico download page...

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Re: hide empty staves menu

Post by Bollen » Fri Jun 28, 2019 5:54 pm

mipi wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 8:09 am
I can not imagine a better solution as in "other" software - select staves you would like to hide or to show and...hide or show them. There is no need to reinvent a bicycle..Would be great if Dorico could do it one day as well..
Does add staff below and/or hide staff not apply...? I have them set to K (for keyswitch) and CTRL+K respectively and it even works on divisi staves...

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Re: hide empty staves menu

Post by mipi » Sat Jun 29, 2019 7:03 am

Rob Tuley wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 2:10 pm
I guess you have never got in a tangle in Sibelius when the system breaks have moved, and half the bars on a staff are marked as "hidden" and the other half are not.

That may not be a problem until later (when you have forgotten about the hidden bars) you do another edit that moves the system breaks again, and suddenly staves start appearing and disappearing on their own, regardless of whether they have any music on them!
Luckily I didn't. You do mostly such formatting, when your piece is already finished. And in a worst case you can ever let Sibelius show everything again. Probably Dorico team will find a better solution? Any way I am sure they are aware - to be able to hide just everything or nothing will never meet needs of professional engravers.

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Re: hide empty staves menu

Post by asbefore » Mon Jul 01, 2019 5:07 pm

Bollen wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 5:54 pm

Does add staff below and/or hide staff not apply...? I have them set to K (for keyswitch) and CTRL+K respectively and it even works on divisi staves...
what is this command? I can't find it in the "Key Commands" selection...

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Re: hide empty staves menu

Post by Stephen Taylor » Mon Jul 01, 2019 5:25 pm

what is this command? I can't find it in the "Key Commands" selection...
You can find the Add Staff Above/Below commands in the Edit menu, or when you control-click on a staff.
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Re: hide empty staves menu

Post by pianoleo » Mon Jul 01, 2019 5:28 pm

Where were you looking?

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Re: hide empty staves menu

Post by Bollen » Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:44 am

A note, on section players you need to instead create a Divisi that you can then hide with the hide Staff command, the create staff below doesn't work...

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Re: hide empty staves menu

Post by asbefore » Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:11 pm

pianoleo wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 5:28 pm
Where were you looking?
I was looking for "hide staff"

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Re: hide empty staves menu

Post by Bollen » Tue Jul 02, 2019 7:48 pm

asbefore wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:11 pm
pianoleo wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 5:28 pm
Where were you looking?
I was looking for "hide staff"
It's under Remove Staff (but don't worry, it doesn't actually remove it, just hides it)

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