Midi files are just getting messed up in LE

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Midi files are just getting messed up in LE

Post by pka4916 » Sun Aug 04, 2019 6:50 am

I'm working with Cubase 10 LE, but after hours of work on midi files. the end result just plain sucks.
This is what I am doing

Load a Midi file, which plays awesome on my PSR 975,
I turn the volume down for the Vocal, and save it as a midi file again.
Once I load it back in my PSR 975, the sounds are different and complete drum tracks are just gone and replaced with other items.

I can't seem to figure out why that is.
Why can't it keep the original music instruments that it was created with ?

Am I missing something?

If I try Cake walk, then I don't seem to have that problem, but I paid for cubase, so i expect it to work the same.
this is preventing me from upgrading to the pro version atm.

Thank you
Last edited by pka4916 on Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Midi files are just getting messed up

Post by Richard834 » Sun Aug 04, 2019 8:04 am

I have Cubase Pro 10, so this is just a guess.

Preferences/MIDI/MIDI File/Import Options
The default setting is Halion Sonic SE multi-timbral.

Is Cubase putting instrument changes into the MIDI?
Does Cubase 10 LE have a List Editor so you can delete them?
Last edited by Richard834 on Sun Aug 04, 2019 8:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Midi files are just getting messed up

Post by Richard834 » Sun Aug 04, 2019 8:11 am

Also -
Preferences/MIDI/MIDI File/Export Options

Untick Export Locator Range.
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Re: Midi files are just getting messed up

Post by pka4916 » Sun Aug 04, 2019 3:19 pm

Hi,

Export Locator Range is already unchecked.

I changed the "The default setting is Halion Sonic SE multi-timbral." to instrument tracks and see what the result is for that.

I am not sure what you mean with this
"Is Cubase putting instrument changes into the MIDI?
Does Cubase 10 LE have a List Editor so you can delete them?"\

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Re: Midi files are just getting messed up

Post by pka4916 » Sun Aug 04, 2019 4:10 pm

changed the "The default setting is Halion Sonic SE multi-timbral." to instrument tracks and it's even worse.
Seems like once I import a midi, the sounds are all different as well, but exported they are all different again too.

so idk what else to do

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Re: Midi files are just getting messed up

Post by Richard834 » Sun Aug 04, 2019 4:35 pm

pka4916 wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 3:19 pm

I am not sure what you mean with this
"Is Cubase putting instrument changes into the MIDI?
Does Cubase 10 LE have a List Editor so you can delete them?"\
Cubase 10 Pro has a List Editor. I've searched the forum - I don't think Cubase LE has this editor.
https://steinberg.help/cubase_pro_artis ... tor_r.html

Here's an example. There is extra MIDI information before the notes. These select the General Midi instrument, etc.
Image


Is there a free MIDI editor you could download - or does Cakewalk have a List Editor?
You could use it to look at the MIDI file before and after you edit it in Cubase. Has Cubase changed the instrument, volume, etc.


The Cubase 10 LE has several options for exporting MIDI.
https://steinberg.help/cubase_le/v10/en ... ile_t.html

https://steinberg.help/cubase_le/v10/en ... les_r.html

https://steinberg.help/cubase_le/v10/en ... op_merge_t


Perhaps someone on the forum who has Cubase 10 LE can help.
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Re: Midi files are just getting messed up in LE

Post by pka4916 » Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:17 pm

Thank you,
I did look but don't think I found anything.
I attached a midi file.
1. Original
2. Saved in Cubase
3. saved in Cakewalk.

The whole drum part is just gone, and some other instruments too.

Maybe you can take a look please?
Attachments
Midifile.zip
(76.4 KiB) Downloaded 21 times

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Re: Midi files are just getting messed up in LE

Post by -steve- » Sun Aug 04, 2019 9:05 pm

The three midi files have different sizes but appear to be identical upon importing to Cubase 10. No tracks missing.

The problem is probably which instruments are assigned in HSSE- you should probably open HSSE, and look through the list to make sure each slot has instrument that actually goes with the respective tracks.
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Re: Midi files are just getting messed up in LE

Post by pka4916 » Sun Aug 04, 2019 9:18 pm

HSSE?
Sorry, I am new to Cubase, so learning the items.

idk if this helps.. in Cubase when i load the midi, and play it on the pc, the drum is faint, (if it's a drum)
and in Cakewalk it's a clear drum, and same for all the other instruments.

But the biggest difference is when i play the midi on my PSR975.
Last edited by pka4916 on Sun Aug 04, 2019 9:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Midi files are just getting messed up in LE

Post by -steve- » Sun Aug 04, 2019 9:19 pm

Halion Sonic SE
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Re: Midi files are just getting messed up in LE

Post by pka4916 » Sun Aug 04, 2019 9:26 pm

Yeah found it in the help :)

Need to figure out why it's totally messed up when i play it on the PSR 975

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Re: Midi files are just getting messed up in LE

Post by -steve- » Sun Aug 04, 2019 9:45 pm

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Re: Midi files are just getting messed up in LE

Post by Brian Roland » Mon Aug 05, 2019 12:53 am

When you load the MIDI file into Cubase and play it, is it using HALion Sonic SE to play the sounds?
OR
Are you rerouting the tracks to your PSR via MIDI?

I'm not sure about LE, but in Cubase Pro, by default imported MIDI files will attach to a bunch of independent Sonic SE instances. So, if you want to send the output of the tracks to another plugin (or even to a single instance of SE, but in rack mode multi-timberal mode), or to some MIDI port for an offboard workstation, you'd need to reassign the tracks to do so.

Not sure about LE (worth a try), but in Pro, You can change the MIDI output of several tracks at once by first holding ctrl and selecting all the tracks you wish to change (so they highlight), then hover the mouse over the output entry in the track inspector, then <shift-alt-click> to select an output for all of highlighted tracks.

Image

Also be advised that Sonic SE isn't configured as a General MIDI plugin by default. So, it's not necessarily going to call up the right sounds if/when it gets MIDI program change events.

Also, with Sonic SE, if you'll be working with General MIDI files, you'll want to hand pick the drum kit you wish to use, and put it on Channel 10. Note, you get several General MIDI mapped drum kits to 'choose from'. Subsequently, if you are working with a General MIDI II file that uses a drum kit on channel 11, again, you should manually place the kit of our choice on channel 11 as well.
Image

Note, if you would like to force a different patch to a given program change (over-ride the basic GM soundset), you can do so by lowering the 'rank' (star rating) of the sound in question in the media browser, then assigning any other sound you like the same program number, and giving it a 'higher rank/star rating'.

If for some reason the MIDI file you wish to play tries to call up a drum kit using a Program Change on channel 10, you can either remove, filter, or mute the program change event (using your key-editor) so it won't keep changing the program/kit you have loaded in SE. If you intend to make a true General MIDI compliant File, you should NOT have a program change event on channel 10. GM1 protocol assumes the kit is just there on channel 10 and ready to go. GM2 has other methods for 'changing kits' (GM2 files will usually work in GM1 players...as a GM1 player just 'ignores' things it doesn't understand, and uses its standard kit).

There is more to discuss in regards to how General MIDI files drive FX units, and how that correlates to HALion SE in particular. SE will accept CC events for reverb and chorus in so far as adjusting the 'send' levels, but you'll need to set the reverb and chorus (types, and fine settings) you want it to use by hand in the SE UI itself.

As for options on importing/exporting MIDI files...there are quite a few of them. More on that later if you ask. For now I must get off the computer and go take care of some things.

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Re: Midi files are just getting messed up in LE

Post by pka4916 » Mon Aug 05, 2019 1:37 pm

at the PSR Tutorial form, they told me to uncheck the sysex under the filter. which i will check later.
That should fix the problem according to them

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Re: Midi files are just getting messed up in LE

Post by pka4916 » Tue Aug 06, 2019 1:41 pm

ok, that did not fix it, so i am still stuck that Cubase is messing up the file once I save it, or load it.
I tried every setting and nothing seems to work.

I am not using a midi interface, i just load the midi, and disable 1 track.
And yes, it's the Halios sounds.

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Re: Midi files are just getting messed up in LE

Post by pka4916 » Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:03 am

Anyone?
Could this be an limitation with the Elements Edition.
I don't mind getting the Pro, but then i need to be sure that it's not messing up my midi files.

All I want in Cubase is load the midi file
Turn the volume off for 1 channel, and save it.
and KEEP the same instruments that it was using. And that doesn't seem to be working properly.

Thank you

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Re: Midi files are just getting messed up in LE

Post by -steve- » Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:20 am

It's not a limitation of Elements. You will have a better chance of solving this if you post at the forums I listed above, because those people are using the psr keyboards.
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Re: Midi files are just getting messed up in LE

Post by pka4916 » Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:27 pm

It has nothing todo with the keyboard.
if I just load in in Cubuse, i don't hear drums.
if I save it, and load it right away, then every instrument is changed and when i play it in cubase it's terrible.. it's all GM,

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Re: Midi files are just getting messed up in LE

Post by -steve- » Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:43 pm

In that case, I don't understand- you said
pka4916 wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 6:50 am
Load a Midi file, which plays awesome on my PSR 975,
I turn the volume down for the Vocal, and save it as a midi file again.
Once I load it back in my PSR 975, the sounds are different and complete drum tracks are just gone and replaced with other items.
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Re: Midi files are just getting messed up in LE

Post by pka4916 » Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:20 am

It is mesed up in when i play it on the keyboard yes,
but forget about the keyboard.

it's also messed up once I load it. (different instruments)
it's also messed up once I load it, save it and load it again. (more different instruments).

So it's not loading right, I am guessing. While other programs do work.

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Re: Midi files are just getting messed up in LE

Post by Brian Roland » Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:01 am

pka4916 wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:20 am
It is mesed up in when i play it on the keyboard yes,
but forget about the keyboard.

it's also messed up once I load it. (different instruments)
it's also messed up once I load it, save it and load it again. (more different instruments).

So it's not loading right, I am guessing. While other programs do work.
If the file is indeed General MIDI, and you intend to play them through the HALion engine that is included with Cubase, then you'll need to set up HSSE to respond to the respective instrument program change events as described earlier in this thread. If the file is NOT GM compliant, then you'll need to manually select instruments that are viable substitutes. This might involve either changing, or stripping program change events, or forcing HSSE to assign appropriate substitute programs/instruments to those embedded in the MIDI file.

Be aware that you have a number of choices in how to load HSSE into the rack and connect tracks to it. When working with general MIDI projects, it's a good idea to load ONE instance of HSSE in 'rack mode' as a 16 channel multi-timbral plugin, and connect all the tracks to that ONE instance.

To export proper GM (smf) files also requires a bit of knowledge and understanding on the GM protocol itself. For instance, do you want it to be type I or type II? Does the instrument require some sysex headers, or NRPN events to let it know it needs to go into GM mode? What reverb and chorus types should it use? Etc....

If your PSR isn't GM, or you aren't trying to use the GM mode, then you'll still need to call up instruments in a way that is valid for your PSR. It's not necessarily going to match HSSE. I.E. For all GM instruments, that are properly initialized to GM mode, program change 1 (in Cubase) will always call up an grand acoustic piano. However, if the instrument isn't in a GM mode, then program change 1 could call up something totally different (or be ignored all together).

I am downloading LE to take a closer look at your MIDI files. I use Pro, but think it'll be better if I install LE to see exactly what options you have rather than 'guessing'. Perhaps I can upload a 'project' with everything properly set-up and connected for you to examine and post questions about.

I'll try to get back to this thread soon.

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Re: Midi files are just getting messed up in LE

Post by Brian Roland » Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:55 am

OK, things look and sound good here for me in LE.

Follow these steps:

1. Start a fresh Cubase instance and open a new empty project.
Image

2. Go to Edit/Preferences/MIDI/MIDI File, and change the "MIDI Destination" drop down to "MIDI Tracks".
Image

3. Tap F11 to bring up the VST Instruments manager. Click "Rack" and select HALion Sonic SE. You'll be asked if you want to create a fresh track connected to this new instance. Choose cancel.
Image

4. Click File/Import/MIDI File to Import. You'll be asked if you want to import it into a new project. Click NO (so it goes into your current project).
Image

5. Select all of the MIDI tracks that have just been imported. You can click the top one, hold the "shift" key and click the last one to select them all together. Or, you can hold the "ctrl" key and select them each one by one.
Image

Once all of the imported tracks are all selected, hover the mouse over the "Output Selector" field in the Track Inspector. Do a "shift + alt + left-mouse-click" on the field, and select your instance of HALion Sonic SE.

This process will connect all the tracks to HALion SE.

6. Go back to your Instrument Rack. If you have closed it, or it's not showing in your right pane, just tap F11 again to bring it back up. Click the little "e" to bring up the HSSE User Interface.
Image

7. Notice how Channel 10 is blank. You'll need to manually find and chose a Drum Kit that uses a General MIDI layout. Here, I've used the "LOAD" tab of HSSE, clicked the Drum&Perc category to filter my options down a bit, PLUS typed "GM" into the search field to narrow it down even further. I've decided I want to try the Techno Kit here, but you can try others. I'll click slot 10 on the left, and double click the "[GM 135] Techno Kit" program to load it into the slot.
Image

Note: If this drum-kit keeps changing to one you do not desire each time you start the transport, then you might need to use the list or key-editor to mute/change/remove the Program Change event on the drum track. Typically for SMF files we don't want a Program Change event on channel 10. Some instruments can use it, some will simply ignore it, but it's not really part of the standard for a true GM mode streaming of the file. GM2 files can support sending a sysex event to pick from a list of drum kits, and GM2 instruments can also use channel 11 for percussion kits. I'm not sure if HSSE3 supports that (I'm pretty sure version 2 and before do NOT)...experiment at your leisure in regards to HSSE3 accepting GM sysex events for selecting different drum kits in HSSE.

8. Next I want to click the "OPTIONS" Tab in HSSE, and make sure the Global Setting for "Program Change" is set to the General MIDI Mode.
Image

9. At this point I'm ready to hit play on the transport and see what happens. Be sure to pull the master volume down on the main Cubase Mixer and gradually bring it up to a comfortable level! It's a good habit...otherwise you can damage your hearing and/or equipment......

10. I'll go to the "EFFECTS" Tab in HSSE, and set up a reverb in AUX 1, and a Chorus in AUX 3, and set them to my liking.
Image

Note: GM2 standard allows you to choose reverb and chorus type using sysex events. I don't think HSSE responds to these (though I could be wrong with HSSE3...in my trial case here no effects were set up automatically, however, your MIDI file does have CC events for reverb (CC91) and chorus (CC93) sends. So....I went in and manually set some up real quick.

Here is an MP3 mixdown of what I now hear....(oops, I accidentally cut the ending short when setting the locators, but you get the idea).
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1MeFvz2 ... sp=sharing

And here is a copy of the Cubase Project loaded as described in the steps above...
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1C92_LL ... sp=sharing

Exporting SMF files from Cubase is yet another topic, and you do have a LOT of options. In this case, it's important to know if you want type I or type II. It's important to have the proper program changes for the target instrument. It might even require entering some sysex events in some cases to set the target instrument up as intended. Personally, I usually end up 'freezing' everything to a fresh set of tracks, so that anything that was handled by stuff entered in Track Inspector fields gets put into the tracks in a way I can carefully verify before exporting. Again, exporting a true GM, GM2, or XM compliant file is a whole new kettle of fish...

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Re: Midi files are just getting messed up in LE

Post by pka4916 » Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:41 pm

thank you so much for the explanation.
Something must be wrong on my system then.
I loaded the project, and getting the same crappy sound.
When I play the mp3, it sounds how it should be.
Already re-installed cubase several times (included deleted all the temp folders)
so not sure what is going on then

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Re: Midi files are just getting messed up in LE

Post by Brian Roland » Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:47 pm

pka4916 wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:41 pm
thank you so much for the explanation.
Something must be wrong on my system then.
I loaded the project, and getting the same crappy sound.
When I play the mp3, it sounds how it should be.
Already re-installed cubase several times (included deleted all the temp folders)
so not sure what is going on then
Can you do a mix down and post it in a drop box somewhere? I can't promise anything, but I might hear a recognizable problem.

Does it sound bad if you load the exact project in the zip file linked above? (edit:oops, you said it does...sorry)

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Re: Midi files are just getting messed up in LE

Post by pka4916 » Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:26 pm

I will once I get home.

Thank you

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