Dorico 3 — A Couple of Questions

Discussions about our next-generation scoring application, Dorico.
inthefold
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Dorico 3 — A Couple of Questions

Post by inthefold » Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:36 pm

Hi,

I've seen everyone in rapture over this new incarnation of Dorico, and there is no doubt in my mind that it is fully justified. B...b...b...but, here are a few questions in terms of its development:

1) With Dorico Pro 3, it can no longer be disputed, Dorico has become the best commercial Music engraving software available, and one of the best tout court. This entails that I would love if it had support of NoteAbility Pro and LilyPond (file formats), which are two Music engraving sotware tools that I, and I'm sure many others, can't do without. Is it too much to ask or hope for?

2) After I acknowledged all the Gigas of software greatness which constitute Dorico Pro 3, here is my bit of immediate criticism: what's with the new Color Scheme, and most of all with that Background gradient? I use Dorico to write Music, not to phase out in Leary-esque electronica and LSD. I loved the previous Color Scheme, it was beautiful and perfect for long evenings of intensive work. It was much better.

All the best,
António
Last edited by inthefold on Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dorico Pro 3 — A Couple of Questions

Post by dankreider » Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:40 pm

1. Based on previous comments by the team, I think it's very unlikely this will ever happen.

2. I also prefer the old color scheme, which was more subtle.
Dan Kreider

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Re: Dorico 3 — A Couple of Questions

Post by FredGUnn » Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:44 pm

2) I kinda like the gradient as it's sort of an instant way to judge where I am on the page if I'm zoomed way in. Some user customization options would definitely be welcome here though.

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Re: Dorico 3 — A Couple of Questions

Post by inthefold » Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:04 pm

I get your point, Fred, and although I much prefer a flat color background, my point is more about the abrasive tones they chose than anything else. They got it right the first time, but not now.

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Daniel at Steinberg
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Re: Dorico 3 — A Couple of Questions

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:14 pm

Any changes to the user interface of a tool that people use all day will obviously arouse high passion in some users, but I urge you to give the new look a bit of time. It was not changed in an indiscriminate way: an enormous amount of thought, care and iterative development has gone into every aspect of the changes.

As for import of LilyPond or NoteAbility Pro files, no, that's not on the cards.

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Re: Dorico 3 — A Couple of Questions

Post by inthefold » Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:25 pm

That's not it, Daniel, it comes from a long-run lived experience of working in software environments for long stretches of time. You got it right the first time, but not now.

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Re: Dorico 3 — A Couple of Questions

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:26 pm

I understand your point of view, but we have no plans to revert back to the original colour scheme.

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Re: Dorico 3 — A Couple of Questions

Post by inthefold » Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:35 pm

That's fine, Daniel, but that doesn't stop it from being a bad move.

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Re: Dorico 3 — A Couple of Questions

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:36 pm

You consider it a bad move, but that does not make it objectively a bad move.

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Re: Dorico 3 — A Couple of Questions

Post by Rob Tuley » Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:49 pm

You would be better off trying to persuade Lilypond and NoteAbility to export MusicXML.

I wouldn't hold your breath over Lilypond. Development seems to have slowed to a crawl and the last "stable" version is about 5 years old. The fact that they embarked on a large-scale effort to rationalize their own file format doesn't seem like good news for anybody else wanting to read it, until they have finished changing it!

Somebody did start writing an app to convert MusicXML to Lilypond input, but I don't think it ever got near enough "complete" to be very useful.

I don't know anything about NoteAbility.

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Re: Dorico 3 — A Couple of Questions

Post by inthefold » Fri Sep 06, 2019 3:07 pm

Daniel, as you noticed both our last statements are irremediably true, but you could have also noticed that they rely on the same epistemological stance, which of course we both intend to be applied universally.

On a more serious tone, Dorico as it stands today is a huge achievement at every front. My criticism and pointed irony isn't meant to detract from that. This said, Dorico does look much, much better in its previous incarnations.

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Re: Dorico 3 — A Couple of Questions

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Fri Sep 06, 2019 3:13 pm

It looks better to you in its previous incarnations.

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Re: Dorico 3 — A Couple of Questions

Post by inthefold » Fri Sep 06, 2019 3:23 pm

Rob, you're quite poorly informed on this issue. NoteAbility Pro supports MusicXML, as does Lilypond in its current (2.19.83) development version and is expected to support it in its upcoming stable 2.20 version.

Daniel, to quote from a film: "la-di-da, la-di-da, la-la."

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Re: Dorico 3 — A Couple of Questions

Post by Rob Tuley » Fri Sep 06, 2019 4:00 pm

The NoteAbility Pro website doesn't say it supports MusicXML (and as I said, I don't know anything about the software)

I have followed the Lilypond development list for years, and never saw MusicXML mentioned there. It's not mentioned at all in the "new features in V2.20 since V2.18" document http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.19/Documentation/changes.pdf either.

But if what you say is true, I don't understand your question at all: if both those apps do support MusicXML, why do you want the Dorico developers to spend time writing a different way to import their input into Dorico?

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Re: Dorico 3 — A Couple of Questions

Post by pat_ » Fri Sep 06, 2019 4:29 pm

I really like the new light theme.

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Re: Dorico 3 — A Couple of Questions

Post by inthefold » Fri Sep 06, 2019 4:53 pm

Rob, on NoteAbility Pro, yes it does, here (third bullet point from the bottom under "Latest News"): http://debussy.music.ubc.ca/index.html
Here it is on Lilypond's documentation: http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.18/Documenta ... usicxml2ly
And although I only use their latest stable version and only print PDFs from LilyPond (I don't use Frescobaldi), here is the MusicXML test suite of their 2.19.83 development branch: http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.19/input/re ... troduction

As to your self-induced perplexity, well... MusicXML isn't a suitable file format for engraving many kinds of musical objects (just think of Electronic music or Spectral music, and the graphic representation of continuous variables across time, etc.), for which other formats like the NAP or LilyPond file formats have something to offer. Besides, more than anything else, this is about insuring that apps communicate to the fullest, with the least amount of loss in translation.
Last edited by inthefold on Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dorico 3 — A Couple of Questions

Post by PaulWalmsley » Fri Sep 06, 2019 5:12 pm

inthefold wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 4:53 pm
Rob, on NoteAbility Pro, yes it does, here (third bullet point from the bottom under "Latest News"): http://debussy.music.ubc.ca/index.html
That says that it *imports* MusicXML, not exports.
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Daniel at Steinberg
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Re: Dorico 3 — A Couple of Questions

Post by Daniel at Steinberg » Fri Sep 06, 2019 5:14 pm

inthefold wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 4:53 pm
Here it is on Lilypond's documentation: http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.18/Documenta ... usicxml2ly
...and MusicXML2ly is also an importer, i.e. it imports MusicXML files into .ly format.

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Re: Dorico 3 — A Couple of Questions

Post by Rob Tuley » Fri Sep 06, 2019 5:17 pm

Your lilypond link is about importing MusicXML into lilypond, not exporting it. That's not what you asked about.

Fair enough about NoteAbility. I looked at the "Features" page http://debussy.music.ubc.ca/NoteAbility/NAfeatures.html which doesn't mention it at all (not even for import)

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Re: Dorico 3 — A Couple of Questions

Post by inthefold » Fri Sep 06, 2019 5:19 pm

LOL Paul and Rob, here is a screenshot of the latest version of NoteAbility Pro with its MusicXML import/export menu fully in sight: https://discussion.forum.ircam.fr/uploa ... a6d5d.jpeg

This is getting ridiculous.

Enjoy. I'm out.

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Re: Dorico 3 — A Couple of Questions

Post by Rob Tuley » Fri Sep 06, 2019 5:29 pm

Do you really expect us to waste our time searching the web to find out about some piece of software where the one-man-band developing it can't be bothered to update the documentation properly?

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Re: Dorico 3 — A Couple of Questions

Post by inthefold » Fri Sep 06, 2019 5:42 pm

No, Rob, I just expect others to not try to frame themselves as knowledgeable when they're not and argue charitably when in doubt, that's all. You just kept on digging yourselves into my last screenshot... That's the crux of it.

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Re: Dorico 3 — A Couple of Questions

Post by Derrek » Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:52 pm

Please just stop, @inthefold. This just makes you look bad and doesn't make people want to support your requests.
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Re: Dorico 3 — A Couple of Questions

Post by inthefold » Fri Sep 06, 2019 7:15 pm

Derrek, I'm sure it is clear to anyone reading the full exchange that I just responded to the mistakes and faux-pas of others in their misrepresentation of the matters at hand. And throughout, every single time I presented my point with due decorum, as I'm doing now with you. Anyway, you're writing this well after the rain fell and stopped, to no point.

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Re: Dorico 3 — A Couple of Questions

Post by Rob Tuley » Fri Sep 06, 2019 7:22 pm

inthefold wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 5:42 pm
I just expect others to not try to frame themselves as knowledgeable when they're not
Ooh, shock horror, I'm going to run away to mummy screaming about some nasty person insulting me on the internet!!!!!

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