Dorico 3 - any steps towards Cubase integration?

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Dorico 3 - any steps towards Cubase integration?

Post by eboats »

One of the things that many musicians/composers have long asked about (perhaps ad nauseum hehe) is the possibility of Cubase integration, since having Cubase is undeniably one of the biggest market advantages Steinberg has over its notation software competitors. Of course, if Dorico is primarily marketed to engravers, then this may not be a big priority.

Is there anything in Dorico 3 that shows any first steps on a roadmap towards Cubase integration?

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Daniel at Steinberg
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Re: Dorico 3 - any steps towards Cubase integration?

Post by Daniel at Steinberg »

Dorico 3 does not introduce any new functionality in this area, but of course as discussed here many times in the past it is something we are working towards. Integration with Cubase is a two-way street and requires aligning the roadmaps, product plans and development and testing teams of both products. This is something we are actively discussing at the moment and certainly there will be steps in this direction in future.

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Re: Dorico 3 - any steps towards Cubase integration?

Post by adrien »

It seems to me that rather than integrating with Cubase, Dorico in some ways is converging towards it. Having spent some time in Cubase recently, and just updated to Dorico 3, I find myself wondering how much I even need to use Cubase now, since I can load all my VSTs, automate CCs, edit velocities etc etc all in Dorico now.

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Re: Dorico 3 - any steps towards Cubase integration?

Post by eboats »

Thanks for the info. Looking forward to what the future holds in this area. Am a bit puzzled though - most software companies develop new features that the largest number of users want. Considering the many Sib/Fin users who may be frustrated by the lack of DAW integration, not to mention the multitudes of professional and amateur musicians who use Cubase (who could be marketed to), I'm a bit surprised this has taken a back seat to some of the main features you're promoting in Dorico 3. I mean, Conductors scores may be nice for a small niche group (conductors!) but is a tiny fraction of the number of potential Dorico users you could reach through Cubase.

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Re: Dorico 3 - any steps towards Cubase integration?

Post by dankreider »

eboats wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 1:46 am
Conductors scores may be nice for a small niche group (conductors!)...
Err, condensed scores are relevant for nearly every orchestra project. This is a massive innovation with huge implications.

That’s not to disagree that Cubase integration is important.
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Re: Dorico 3 - any steps towards Cubase integration?

Post by Rob Tuley »

eboats wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 1:46 am
I mean, Conductors scores may be nice for a small niche group (conductors!) but is a tiny fraction of the number of potential Dorico users you could reach through Cubase.
Dorico in a notation program. Cubase is a DAW.

Sure there is a lot of common functionality, but until Steinberg releases Doribase or Cubico, they are (or should be IMO) aimed at different target customers.

Condensed scores are "more than nice" for anybody who works with notation - and I mean notation as in physical sheet music, not as in a neat way to work with computer generated audio from a sample library.

If Dorico is meant to be a DAW, all the effort that has gone into developing Engrave mode was a waste of time - something cheap and cheerful like the Cubase score editor would do the job just as well!

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Re: Dorico 3 - any steps towards Cubase integration?

Post by Makumbaria »

Condensed scores and guitar tablatures are huge improvements. I think this kind of thing is more important than Cubase integration.
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Re: Dorico 3 - any steps towards Cubase integration?

Post by adrien »

dankreider wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 2:05 am
eboats wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 1:46 am
Conductors scores may be nice for a small niche group (conductors!)...
Err, condensed scores are relevant for nearly every orchestra project. This is a massive innovation with huge implications.
yes, what Dan said.

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Re: Dorico 3 - any steps towards Cubase integration?

Post by robjohn9999 »

And they ARE making strides with playback and sequencer-like functionality as well, as evidenced by their Piano Roll editor, their newly-introduced individual note velocity editor, and the ability to edit MIDI continuous controller data (though I also look forward to more work in these areas - I’d love to be able to increasingly ditch Logic Pro for more of my client mockups and do everything in Dorico). Very excited about what the future will bring.
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Re: Dorico 3 - any steps towards Cubase integration?

Post by Franklinspired »

I too was expecting some steps in the direction of some form of integration with Cubase. The score-editor in Cubase has not been updated for a while now and that is where Dorico could step in with either the integration of Dorico elements as many here have suggested earlier or a any other clever form of integration. However I will go for Dorico 3 Pro as I enjoy working with the software more than any other I have worked with (Finale/Sibelius).
Hopefully the integration with Cubase will see the light in version 4.

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Re: Dorico 3 - any steps towards Cubase integration?

Post by Concha »

Integration at different levels would be genius. Cubase notation is pretty useless, but imagine you are a Cubase user and switch to the notation side and find Dorico.
I´m a Dorico user but open some Dorico midi files on Cubase, to practice, using it´s more advanced loop functions ...etc..Also incredible to play duos, have Cubase play on Guitar, I do the other one, then switch.
Not to mention recording, combining all the features of both programs.
Like I mentioned a while back: if Steinberg would offer integrated "suites", for different levels, from students to hobby players, to pros... that would put them at the crown of music software planet, and production.
Just a question of putting the puzzle together, shouldn´t be such a massive endeavor, considering it´s all in the same house.
I have a feeling that´s what´s coming, can´t wait...FUN FUN.

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Re: Dorico 3 - any steps towards Cubase integration?

Post by pianoleo »

Shouldn’t be a massive endeavour?
You’ve got two different programs developed in different countries by (mostly) different people, with different software architecture. As I’ve pointed out elsewhere, Cubase can’t support simultaneous time signatures, whereas Dorico can support a theoretically unlimited number of simultaneous time signatures. Not to mention the fact that the two programs have two different existing roadmaps, some of whose components would need to be put on hold until the two programs are integrated.
I’d be very surprised if integrating these two products wasn’t a massive endeavour.
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Re: Dorico 3 - any steps towards Cubase integration?

Post by lucas_r_r »

I actually would be happy with ReWire integration, to use with any DAW, but I understand that it might or might not be wise from a corporate point of view. Anyway, I suppose that integration makes part of a long term strategy and that steps are being taken in that direction.
Look at Apple with macOS and iOS. There have been taken steps to make them closer as part of a long term strategy.
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Re: Dorico 3 - any steps towards Cubase integration?

Post by LSalgueiro »

lucas_r_r wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 2:46 pm
I actually would be happy with ReWire integration, to use with any DAW, but I understand that it might or might not be wise from a corporate point of view. Anyway, I suppose that integration makes part of a long term strategy and that steps are being taken in that direction.
Look at Apple with macOS and iOS. There have been taken steps to make them closer as part of a long term strategy.
Yes, making both software and some lower-level functions of OS much worse!

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Re: Dorico 3 - any steps towards Cubase integration?

Post by arnberg »

Firstly, thank you very much for this excellent update! Pure joy!
And a little question touching the topic of this thread: would it be doable to add the possibility to sync to a good ole' wav-file so to eliminate the utterly boring process of converting audio to video?

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Re: Dorico 3 - any steps towards Cubase integration?

Post by adrien »

lucas_r_r wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 2:46 pm
I actually would be happy with ReWire integration, to use with any DAW, but I understand that it might or might not be wise from a corporate point of view. Anyway, I suppose that integration makes part of a long term strategy and that steps are being taken in that direction.
Look at Apple with macOS and iOS. There have been taken steps to make them closer as part of a long term strategy.
Is there no VST you can get that can connect to a rewire host to do this?

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Re: Dorico 3 - any steps towards Cubase integration?

Post by adrien »

pianoleo wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 11:42 am
Shouldn’t be a massive endeavour?
You’ve got two different programs developed in different countries by (mostly) different people, with different software architecture. As I’ve pointed out elsewhere, Cubase can’t support simultaneous time signatures, whereas Dorico can support a theoretically unlimited number of simultaneous time signatures. Not to mention the fact that the two programs have two different existing roadmaps, some of whose components would need to be put on hold until the two programs are integrated.
I’d be very surprised if integrating these two products wasn’t a massive endeavour.
I agree. I wonder whether Dorico would be the better platform to move forward towards more DAW features (recording etc) rather than trying to make notation work better in Cubase. Cubase score editor is pretty much unusable.

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Re: Dorico 3 - any steps towards Cubase integration?

Post by lucas_r_r »

adrien wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 11:41 am
lucas_r_r wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 2:46 pm
I actually would be happy with ReWire integration, to use with any DAW, but I understand that it might or might not be wise from a corporate point of view. Anyway, I suppose that integration makes part of a long term strategy and that steps are being taken in that direction.
Look at Apple with macOS and iOS. There have been taken steps to make them closer as part of a long term strategy.
Is there no VST you can get that can connect to a rewire host to do this?
I still didn't check that out, but I doubt it works. Hope I'm wrong. Maybe there's a MIDI based solution as well, but also I didn't research it yet.
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Re: Dorico 3 - any steps towards Cubase integration?

Post by LSalgueiro »

adrien wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 11:41 am
lucas_r_r wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 2:46 pm
I actually would be happy with ReWire integration, to use with any DAW, but I understand that it might or might not be wise from a corporate point of view. Anyway, I suppose that integration makes part of a long term strategy and that steps are being taken in that direction.
Look at Apple with macOS and iOS. There have been taken steps to make them closer as part of a long term strategy.
Is there no VST you can get that can connect to a rewire host to do this?
If I recall correctly, Brian Roland found a VST that allows you to do that, but it's a clunky workaround and the request has been around since v1.

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Re: Dorico 3 - any steps towards Cubase integration?

Post by mducharme »

Since I often draft in Cubase and import into Dorico, what I would really like to be able to do is export a .dorico file from Cubase. In order to do this, the Dorico engine would probably need to be in there somehow. Perhaps a simple feature like DP's QuickScribe which could use Dorico as a rendering engine to render the Cubase music and export a .dorico file to Dorico.

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Re: Dorico 3 - any steps towards Cubase integration?

Post by Daniel at Steinberg »

A "simple feature like DP's QuickScribe"....! No problem, we'll have it implemented by tomorrow.

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Re: Dorico 3 - any steps towards Cubase integration?

Post by mducharme »

Daniel at Steinberg wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:24 am
A "simple feature like DP's QuickScribe"....! No problem, we'll have it implemented by tomorrow.
Hi Daniel. It seems I've been very imprecise in my communication with you lately; I re-read what I wrote and understand how it came across. I didn't mean to imply it would be simple to implement (I know very well that it wouldn't). I probably should have used the word "basic" instead. I meant simple as in not full-featured like the existing Cubase score editor where you have all of those edit functions. I don't need to be able to do any score editing in Cubase whatsoever, just view and export. I do realize even just implementing something like that would be a lot of work, but I would imagine less work than also including editing. I also would see that as more of an item for the Cubase team rather than the Dorico team. As a long time Cubase user (15 years), I am just providing feedback as to what I eventually would like to see, and would hope that you welcome feedback from users of both products.

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Re: Dorico 3 - any steps towards Cubase integration?

Post by Brian Roland »

LSalgueiro wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 9:13 pm
adrien wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 11:41 am
lucas_r_r wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 2:46 pm
I actually would be happy with ReWire integration, to use with any DAW, but I understand that it might or might not be wise from a corporate point of view. Anyway, I suppose that integration makes part of a long term strategy and that steps are being taken in that direction.
Look at Apple with macOS and iOS. There have been taken steps to make them closer as part of a long term strategy.
Is there no VST you can get that can connect to a rewire host to do this?
If I recall correctly, Brian Roland found a VST that allows you to do that, but it's a clunky workaround and the request has been around since v1.
The XT Rewire VST plugin will kind of make Dorico a rewire host, but not a slave. I sometimes use it to bridge in old 32bit plugins...or things that are not VST plugins at all. Currently we cannot get any sync signal from the Dorico playback engine out to other plugins, or over MIDI, etc. No ppq, no bpm, etc. Dorico will not sync his transport to anything as a slave either.

Some DAWS might be able to run as a slave from an ASIO sample count alone, but I haven't had much luck finding anything that will sync its transport up with Dorico. I.E. I can get Reaper to slave up enough to host some instruments, but I haven't found a way to get his transport rolling. I can lock Bidule up enough to run audio tracks in sync with Dorico, but that's it....no transport sync support from Dorico at this time.

The closest thing to a tight sync I've managed to achieve is to treat Dorico as the master and have it play a SMPTE stripe from Dorico's video player into a black-box (I have several left over from the 80s and 90s, tested with a unit like this one) that can turn that into MTC/MMC with Cubase set up to be the slave and running in the time-line mode (ignore the tempo track and lock to time code). Dorico will let you export a midi tempo track if you need that information on the DAW side at some point. I can do something similar by playing the SMPTE audio file from an instance of Bidule hosted inside Dorcio as well. The catch with this method is that Dorcio doesn't have much of a routing matrix for audio devices (not sure if it'll support surround sound channels on the audio card either...I.E. putting the stripe on one of the back channels), so you'd have to surrender your audio device to playing the SMPTE code and host your sounds in the DAW over MIDI, OR, do what I did and pull some reaStreaming voodoo in the effects slot of the Video fader to divert the SMPTE signal out of Dorico and into something else and mute it out of the Dorico mix.

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Re: Dorico 3 - any steps towards Cubase integration?

Post by alindsay55661 »

adrien wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 1:18 am
It seems to me that rather than integrating with Cubase, Dorico in some ways is converging towards it. Having spent some time in Cubase recently, and just updated to Dorico 3, I find myself wondering how much I even need to use Cubase now, since I can load all my VSTs, automate CCs, edit velocities etc etc all in Dorico now.
I fully agree with this. Cubase is a monster and the wrong kind of integration would actually be counter productive. I can understand a workflow where Cubase will open Dorico files directly (and save them back so you can switch between the two programs), for example, but I would never want to have these programs try to be too connected, certainly never merged. I would much rather see Dorico improve its current VST tooling and possibly add audio tracks.

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Re: Dorico 3 - any steps towards Cubase integration?

Post by Mackieguy »

I am also on the edge of my seat waiting for some kind of integration between Dorico and Cubase. I've got a project right now that combines orchestral elements (mainly strings, brass and some percussion) with sound design elements that are really, really hard to put in to some kind of quantized notation format. This is one of those times where I would have the orchestral stuff in Dorico and the SD/SFX/electronic stuff in Cubase. I don't really care which one is the master/slave as long as they are sync'ed. It's SO MUCH easier to write orchestral cues in Dorico than Cubase. However, it's SO MUCH easier to do MIDI editing and VST part/articulation breakouts (especially if you are using multiple libraries) in Cubase once all is done. Not to mention audio recording, clip editing, mixing, etc.

I do NOT endorse combining Cubase and Dorico in to one product. Yeah, it's seems like they might be converging when it comes to writing musical notes and being able to play back said notes in an appropriate manner. BUT IT STOPS THERE. You wouldn't use Dorico to record and mix the final product with all the additional audio stems for other recorded music, SFX, vocals, etc.

But I HIGHLY ENDORSE getting the the two apps to play nicely together when it comes to being able to sync. Personally, I'd like to see a kind of SMPTE/MTC method so that I can sync to not just Cubase but also to maybe a third app like Pro Tools for video playback on a separate PC.

If not that then MAYBE a "Dorico-light" makeover of the Cubase score editor. Because the current one is just...ugh.

Anyway, until then, I'll have to continue to use Rewire with Sibelius. I'll be sobbing while I do it, but I gotta do it.

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