Controlling multiple parameters in unison

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jditmer0
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Controlling multiple parameters in unison

Post by jditmer0 » Mon Dec 26, 2011 9:29 am

Hi all,

I'm trying to assign a filter cutoff from multiple different instruments to the same midi controller knob. This way I can adjust them in unison. I would prefer a method that incorporates some kind of "virtual knob station" because I only have two knobs on my midi controller (more knobs..more parameters i can adjust)

I tried assigning each filter cutoff to quick control slot number one BUT the filter cutoffs on the different tracks don't automate in unison. The knob controls the filter cutoff of ONLY the selected track. I tried selecting multiple tracks at the same time and tried switching the monitor button on for every track, but they won't adjust in unison!

I have herd of people mentioning "Blue Cat's Remote Control" and "Bidule", but I don't want to look deep into something just to find out that there are more efficient set-ups. Please share an efficient set up for this job, thank you so much!
-john

Crotchety
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Re: Controlling multiple parameters in unison

Post by Crotchety » Mon Dec 26, 2011 4:09 pm

Hi, don't know if this'll help and I haven't got anything set up to test it on but would putting your filter data on a separate MIDI track and sending it simultaneously from the track output and up to 4 MIDI Sends be any good? Gives you 5 separate outs for each set of data. For more than that I don't know but this post I've just read on effectively the same subject may help: http://www.steinberg.net/forums/viewtop ... 00#p107887
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jditmer0
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Re: Controlling multiple parameters in unison

Post by jditmer0 » Tue Dec 27, 2011 2:47 am

Crotchety wrote:Hi, don't know if this'll help and I haven't got anything set up to test it on but would putting your filter data on a separate MIDI track and sending it simultaneously from the track output and up to 4 MIDI Sends be any good? Gives you 5 separate outs for each set of data. For more than that I don't know but this post I've just read on effectively the same subject may help: http://www.steinberg.net/forum/viewtopi ... 00#p107887

haha thank you for finding that for me, however, I had already saw that and posted a comment on that page explaining that I need to automate 10+ parameters at the same time
-john

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Re: Controlling multiple parameters in unison

Post by Crotchety » Tue Dec 27, 2011 3:07 am

oh, that was you was it? ok! lol
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jditmer0
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Re: Controlling multiple parameters in unison

Post by jditmer0 » Tue Dec 27, 2011 10:55 pm

I can't believe there is no strait forward way to do this. This should be an easy thing to do, as doing this is childsplay in Ableton and Reason.
-john

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Re: Controlling multiple parameters in unison

Post by Como Baila » Tue Dec 27, 2011 11:29 pm

jditmer0 wrote:I can't believe there is no strait forward way to do this. This should be an easy thing to do, as doing this is childsplay in Ableton and Reason.
This is exactly the same issue you asked about in this thread http://www.steinberg.net/forums/viewtop ... =19&t=7700 with the same solution.

From the sequencer and instrument's view, automation or note data is all the same thing.

If you do what I said, sending your output from the track on which you have set up Quick Controls to control cutoff or what other CC data you desire output to a Virtual Cable port and then setup the MIDI tracks hosting your instruments to that same Virtual Cable port MIDI input you can control all ten or a hundred separate instruments from the same note in and automation data from the original MIDI track. And don't forget, if you're short on 'knobs,' you can also do this with a mouse using the 'slider' in the Quick Control slots.

The only possible problem would be if one of the instruments didn't use the standard 'cutoff' of CC 74 (or is it CC 71) and therefore wouldn't respond as expected.

Just make sure that no other MIDI tracks are set using 'all midi input' or the same Virtual Cable port as track input or output in order to avoid any midi feedback loop problems.

Como
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jditmer0
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Re: Controlling multiple parameters in unison

Post by jditmer0 » Sat Dec 31, 2011 9:14 am

If you do what I said, sending your output from the track on which you have set up Quick Controls to control cutoff or what other CC data you desire output to a Virtual Cable port and then setup the MIDI tracks hosting your instruments to that same Virtual Cable port MIDI input you can control all ten or a hundred separate instruments from the same note in and automation data from the original MIDI track. And don't forget, if you're short on 'knobs,' you can also do this with a mouse using the 'slider' in the Quick Control slots.

First, I want to thank you very much for helping me. However, I've been stumped on this since you posted. I've been trying my very best; looking through the manual as well. I had basically an essay typed up with different methods I tried step by step and the problems I was experiencing, but I realized I should probably just ask you if you could please type up step by step an instructional guide on how to set this up. I'm sorry como, I feel terrible asking you this. I really tried to interpret your response.

Below are a couple issues I was experiencing while trying to get this to work right.

ISSUE 1:
After trying several midi CC commands under quick controls within my midi track, I've realized I can not control my VST instrument with cc commands. The descriptions of the cc numbers do not correlate with the synths parameters. For instance, choosing cc 73 (attack time) within my midi track quick controls will not control the attack time of my synth, however, I CAN control my synth's attack time using quick controls when finding the parameter under my synth's folder and not the "all CC" folder.

ISSUE 2:
Within any synth, when I assign ANY parameter to a knob via 'midi learn' command, it ONLY records the automation within the CC74 (brightness) lane and no other cc number. This leads me to believe that the only CC control numbers my synth's parameters correspond with are CC74 (brightness) and thats it. This is a problem because i can't assign different parameters to different cc numbers.
Last edited by jditmer0 on Sat Dec 31, 2011 11:17 am, edited 2 times in total.
-john

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Re: Controlling multiple parameters in unison

Post by Como Baila » Sat Dec 31, 2011 10:09 am

jditmer0 wrote:
If you do what I said, sending your output from the track on which you have set up Quick Controls to control cutoff or what other CC data you desire output to a Virtual Cable port and then setup the MIDI tracks hosting your instruments to that same Virtual Cable port MIDI input you can control all ten or a hundred separate instruments from the same note in and automation data from the original MIDI track. And don't forget, if you're short on 'knobs,' you can also do this with a mouse using the 'slider' in the Quick Control slots.

First, I want to thank you very much for helping me. However, I've been stumped on this since you posted. I've been trying my very best; looking through the manual as well. I had basically an essay typed up with different methods I tried step by step and the problems I was experiencing, but I realized I should probably just ask you if you could please type up step by step an instructional guide on how to set this up. I'm sorry como, I feel terrible asking you this. I really tried to interpret your response.

Below are a couple issues I was experiencing while trying to get this to work right.
John ... It's late and my energy is low ... but here are a few quick points that may resolve things for you.

jditmer0 wrote:ISSUE 1:
After trying several midi CC commands under quick controls within my midi track, I've realized I can not control my VST instrument with cc commands. The descriptions of the cc numbers do not correlate with the synths parameters. For instance, choosing cc 73 (attack time) within my midi track quick controls will not control the attack time of my synth, however, I CAN control my synth's attack time using quick controls when finding the parameter under my synth's folder and not the "all CC" folder.

The standard names of the CC messages, are just that, 'standard' names. I think they relate to the naming convention in the GM format.

But each CC is just a parameter that can send it's message to what ever can receive it.

What is important, is not the 'standard' name of the CC. What is important is the documentation for your synth telling which CC is used for which parameter in the synth. The synth designer can decide which CC message he designates to to control which parameter.

Here you are talking 'synth,' not 'synths.' I guess you mean you are trying this with one. I don't know if you were intending to insert the same synth 10 times, 10 different synths or some combination. The question is which CC message your (the) synth uses for the parameter you want. If your synth only uses 'midi learn' and doesn't have dedicated CC messages, that is another story. What is happening when you look under the synth parameters from Quick Control sounds like the parameter is being addressed directly through Cubase.
jditmer0 wrote:ISSUE 2:
Within any synth, when I assign ANY parameter to a knob via 'midi learn' command, it ONLY records the automation within the CC74 (brightness) lane and no other cc number. This leads me to believe that the only CC control numbers my synth's parameters correspond with are CC74 (brightness) and thats it. This is a problem because i can't assign different parameters to different cc numbers.
What is the CC message output by the knobs on your controller? If you midi learn from the controller directly to the parameters of the soft synth, then you need to be sending different CC messages from the controller to the softsynth for different parameters. You may need to be able to learn to change the CC message output from the controller between midi learn assignments. It is sort of sounding as though CC74 is coming from the controller.

The best would be if you have documentation for the synths and they do respond to common midi messages ... then you wouldn't have to midi learn, but just assign that parameter to one of the quick controls.



The answer to your impasse may be that you are not identifying which CC parameters are used by your synths. As I think I said, most use CC 74 and 71 for 'Cutoff' and 'Resonance,' respectively. But if some don't, then you will not be able to control that parameter in unison with the others.

Try and just set up one with the quick control using the documented CC parameters for the synth on one track. If you get that working right, then you can start chaining using the virtual cables.

I'll try to check in the next day of so (if someone else doesn't pitch in) to see if this got you on the way to resolving things.
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jditmer0
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Re: Controlling multiple parameters in unison

Post by jditmer0 » Sat Dec 31, 2011 2:00 pm

The answer to your impasse may be that you are not identifying which CC parameters are used by your synths. As I think I said, most use CC 74 and 71 for 'Cutoff' and 'Resonance,' respectively. But if some don't, then you will not be able to control that parameter in unison with the others.

Try and just set up one with the quick control using the documented CC parameters for the synth on one track. If you get that working right, then you can start chaining using the virtual cables.

Thank you for all of that. I'm about to give you a handfull, and I'm sorry ahead of time.

The parameter I want to automate is not included in the CC parameters for the synth. I see 127 cc parameters under "all cc" within quick controls, and there are at least 3 times that amount under Zebra's synth parameters. The parameter i want to automate in unison (called "mod depth 2") is quite specified, thus, it was not included in the CC parameters for the synth.

To assign "mod depth 2" to a CC control, I went to device setup and created a generic remote by clicking on the + sign in the upper left hand corner. While editing the generic remote i was able to assign "mod depth 2" to address 74 (which is the CC#) and address 74 corresponds to knob 1 on my midi controller. While in here I figured i would see if I could get parameters to adjust in unison. I added another "mod depth 2" parameter from a second synth and assigned it to the same CC# and knob, however, this did not work for some reason, as only one of the "mod depth 2's" adjusted with knob 1. I ditched that plan and decided to see if I can now assign "mod depth 2" to the quick control slot #1 via CC# (slot #1 linked with knob 1 as well). I added CC 74 to the quick control, which is the CC# I assigned "mod depth 2" to within the generic remote I created. The problem is, when I move the quick control slider, "mod depth 2" does not adjust and vic versa . Both the quick control slider AND "mod depth 2" adjust at the turn of knob 1 though.

After that failed, I had hoped midi learn would work. But when I click midi learn on a parameter within one VST instrument, that same parameter will automate on ALL VST instruments that are the same VST instrument as the one I clicked midi learn on. I don't want this, as I do not wish to modify that parameter on some of the synths I have loaded. This next part will be hard to explain. Of course I could disable the record/monitor buttons on the vst instruments I do not wish to control that parameter on, but I need to be able to adjust MULTIPLE groups of the same type of parameter amongst separate instances of a specific VST Instrument (HUH?).

Let me give an example.

I have VST instrument #1, #2, #3, #4, and I have filters F1, F2, F3, and F4 that correspond to the VST instrument numbers respectively. All of the VST instruments are duplicates of the same VST instrument (so when I assign F1 to a knob through the midi learn command, F2, F3, and F4 will also adjust if the record enable is selected on all of the VSTi's). However, I need to assign F1 & F2 to knob 1 and F3 & F4 to knob 2. But this is not possible because as soon as I assign a different knob to the other two filters, ALL of the filters are reassigned to that different knob.
-john

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Re: Controlling multiple parameters in unison

Post by Como Baila » Sat Dec 31, 2011 7:36 pm

You are cursed with the blessings of so many parameters available for automation. You've come a long way and are getting beyond what I can help you with. I'm mostly working with hardware that uses the 'hard wired' CC messages and generally 'standard' ones of the GM convention across the different synth manufacturers.

I wouldn't bother with creating the remote device. I'd simply assign a CC, say #74, with 'midi learn' from my controller to the parameter in the synth. And then with QuickControl, assign the QuickControl #1 to that same parameter, i.e., #74. Cubase will remember the 'midi learn' assignment for that synth parameter in the project.

The last part confuses me. Of course if you midi learn a specific parameter of a synth, you cannot have a different CC midi assignment in some of the instances of the four synths for that parameter. The new 'midi learn' will be reassigned to that new CC for all instances of the synth.

It sounds like you are no longer trying to make all the synths respond in unison, but want to be able to make different filter cutoff curves for two instances different from the other two ... respecting this one parameter.

That's not unison.

I don't think there is any way to do what you seem to now be asking.

You could do something like this using a different synth, i.e., not Zebra, to control the other's equivalent parameter with a different QuickControl fader ... but again, this would not be unison.

Como
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Re: Controlling multiple parameters in unison

Post by jditmer0 » Sat Dec 31, 2011 10:18 pm

It sounds like you are no longer trying to make all the synths respond in unison, but want to be able to make different filter cutoff curves for two instances different from the other two ... respecting this one parameter.

That's not unison.

I don't think there is any way to do what you seem to now be asking.

You could do something like this using a different synth, i.e., not Zebra, to control the other's equivalent parameter with a different QuickControl fader ... but again, this would not be unison.

That is indeed what I would like to do. Using a different synth to control the other's equivalent parameter is an interesting idea, but very un-user friendly. I have to say, this is the first time Cubase has let me down to this extent.

Do you think that this would be possible to do in conjunction with that plugin you mentioned "xlutop Chainer"? If the answer is maybe, then I would need to find an equivalent plugin which is operable on a mac, as "chainer" is PC only.
Last edited by jditmer0 on Sat Dec 31, 2011 10:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-john

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Re: Controlling multiple parameters in unison

Post by Como Baila » Sat Dec 31, 2011 10:30 pm

You'd still have a similar issue if the stacked/ racked synths in a Chainer equivalent didn't use the same CC message # to control the parameter of interest.

Look, you've basically got the 'unison' part worked out. You have 8 Quick Control slots to use from your midi control track. Why is it user unfriendly to set up a second 'unison' group of several instantiations of a different synth ... with patches you want ... set up to some of the other of the remaining 7 Quick Controls?

You'd still only need the one track's Quick Control window open to tweak your banks of synths.

I don't see that as much different as what you were trying to do before using a different 'midi learn' with different groupings of the same synth.

Good luck.

Como
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Re: Controlling multiple parameters in unison

Post by jditmer0 » Sun Jan 01, 2012 2:35 am

I'd simply assign a CC, say #74, with 'midi learn' from my controller to the parameter in the synth. And then with QuickControl, assign the QuickControl #1 to that same parameter, i.e., #74. Cubase will remember the 'midi learn' assignment for that synth parameter in the project.

If I assign "mod depth 2" to CC#74 via "midi learn" I can control that parameter on all synths in unison (as we already know). However, I do not understand the reason for assigning quick control #1 to CC#74 because when I move the quick control fader, the "mod depth 2" parameter does not adjust. So what purpose does assigning quick control #1 to CC#74 serve?
-john

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