how can I write “p dolce” on top of a crescendo?

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k_b
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how can I write “p dolce” on top of a crescendo?

Post by k_b »

Hello,

I am using Dorico Elements 3.1
a very simple task, quite a standard situation, still I seem to be unable get this result:

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Re: how can I write “p dolce” on top of a crescendo?

Post by EdmKlw »

I'm also looking for the answer.
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Re: how can I write “p dolce” on top of a crescendo?

Post by tristis »

Perhaps someone will be able to help you but I have to say that in project after project, I find I'm having to fight Dorico over dynamics and wasting a lot of time. Trying to replicate mainstream scores is often a struggle (and in Pro as well as Elements) and working on an Urtext edition (if only for my own use) can be a frustrating business.

I think the Dorico team have made a rare misjudgment in this area (things like tempo markings can also be annoyingly restricted) and I hope they'll look at it again as a matter of urgency.
Last edited by tristis on Sun Feb 02, 2020 1:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: how can I write “p dolce” on top of a crescendo?

Post by k_b »

I have faked it with Shift-X text in italic, like here:

p dolce

Still the dynamic mark itself “p”looks rather ugly in Academico bold italic.
One can not really hide the fact it is a fake...
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semibreve [whole note] - minim [half note]
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Re: how can I write “p dolce” on top of a crescendo?

Post by k_b »

I have faked it with Shift-X text in italic, like here:

p dolce

Still the dynamic mark itself “p” looks rather ugly in Academico bold italic.
One can not really hide the fact it is a fake...
Dorico Elements 3.5.10, Dorico Pro 3.5.10.1045
PhotoScore Ultimate 2020.1.14

semibreve [whole note] - minim [half note]
crotchet [quarter note] - quaver [eighth note]
semiquaver [sixteenth note]

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Re: how can I write “p dolce” on top of a crescendo?

Post by pianoleo »

k_b, there's no good way around this in Elements. In Pro I'd set the grid value to something very small (a demisemiquaver, probably) then add the "p dolce" fractionally earlier than the crescendo then drag into place.

EdmKlw, you can do this quite easily:
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Re: how can I write “p dolce” on top of a crescendo?

Post by EdmKlw »

I am using Dorico Pro.

Pianoleo, that's a good idea, thank you. I'm trying to do that. I'm curious if it's played accordingly.

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Re: how can I write “p dolce” on top of a crescendo?

Post by benwiggy »

k_b wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 12:03 pm
Still the dynamic mark itself “p” looks rather ugly in Academico bold italic.
One can not really hide the fact it is a fake...
You can use Bravura Text and the SMuFL p symbol.

One might argue that it makes more sense for the p and hairpin to be aligned, and the dolce instruction written separately.

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Re: how can I write “p dolce” on top of a crescendo?

Post by EdmKlw »

I think if it is too narrow for the text and hairpin, there must be the possibility to introduce a line break.

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Re: how can I write “p dolce” on top of a crescendo?

Post by EdmKlw »

For example, a line break in front of suffix/preffix.

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Re: how can I write “p dolce” on top of a crescendo?

Post by Derrek »

In Pro, of course, one can use the Engrave Mode to move the items. Elements, no.

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Re: how can I write “p dolce” on top of a crescendo?

Post by EdmKlw »

But this is manual work and editing is necessary for each flow.

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Re: how can I write “p dolce” on top of a crescendo?

Post by pianoleo »

If you meant for each layout, then no, you can (and should) use Edit > Propagate Properties.
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Re: how can I write “p dolce” on top of a crescendo?

Post by k_b »

benwiggy wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 12:29 pm
k_b wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 12:03 pm
Still the dynamic mark itself “p” looks rather ugly in Academico bold italic.
One can not really hide the fact it is a fake...
You can use Bravura Text and the SMuFL p symbol.

One might argue that it makes more sense for the p and hairpin to be aligned, and the dolce instruction written separately.

Image
Thanks Ben, can I use a SMuFL symbol in Dorico Elements - i.e. in the Shift-X popup?
Last edited by k_b on Sun Feb 02, 2020 8:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: how can I write “p dolce” on top of a crescendo?

Post by k_b »

Derrek wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 3:34 pm
In Pro, of course, one can use the Engrave Mode to move the items. Elements, no.

Image
duelingDynamics.png
Derrek, I am on tour for a month, so I can only use Dorico Elements during that time (installation on MacBook Pro)...
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semibreve [whole note] - minim [half note]
crotchet [quarter note] - quaver [eighth note]
semiquaver [sixteenth note]

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Re: how can I write “p dolce” on top of a crescendo?

Post by Derrek »

So you would likely have to use your solution until you got home; I understand. Some day, when the successor licensing scheme comes out, you will presumably no longer have this difficulty.
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Re: how can I write “p dolce” on top of a crescendo?

Post by k_b »

yes, at the moment I can live with it...
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Re: how can I write “p dolce” on top of a crescendo?

Post by tristis »

It's ridiculous that people think it's defensible to have to use workarounds for something as simple and commonplace as this. There are lots of good things about Dorico but this isn't one of them.

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Re: how can I write “p dolce” on top of a crescendo?

Post by Derrek »

I wonder how commonplace this structure is. If somewhere down the road(map) the Dorico Team decides to let one use a RETURN to stack dynamics, that might work out; but I expect making this something like an Engraving Option would make for more work (canceling it where not needed) than it saved.

It surprises me how often users want to make everything automatic--and the stuff they want be in the very next release (and available for free in Dorico SE). I should probably not be surprised. I will trust the Team to evaluate suggestions and work them into their roadmap as they deem appropriate. They have done an amazing job to date.
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Re: how can I write “p dolce” on top of a crescendo?

Post by benwiggy »

k_b wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 8:52 pm
Thanks Ben, can I use a SMuFL symbol in Dorico Elements - i.e. in the Shift-X popup?
As far as I know: If you can select "Music Text" in the Character Style menu: If not, you can still select the char and change the font.

Image

On the broader topic: Once you're into the idea of stacking lines of dynamic text, then that's hardly distinct from separate items. As said, outside of 18th-century Naples, 'dolce' or other instruction is not really a volume level.

This is not something I'd consider as being a stumbling block or obstacle to productivity. Mind you, I'm used to Finale, so .. low bar. :lol:
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Re: how can I write “p dolce” on top of a crescendo?

Post by tristis »

Derrek wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 9:16 pm
It surprises me how often users want to make everything automatic
It's Dorico that tries to make everything automatic and it does a brilliant job most of the time. The problem is that if you have to do something that doesn't fit within the ambit of what the team has anticipated, things can be difficult (Daniel has acknowledged this). Obviously there is always going to some outré notation that one can't expect to be easily accommodated but when unexceptional things in mainstream literature are difficult to replicate, it's frustrating.

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Re: how can I write “p dolce” on top of a crescendo?

Post by Rob Tuley »

tristis wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 9:10 pm
It's ridiculous that people think it's defensible to have to use workarounds for something as simple and commonplace as this.
I can't speak for other people, but I would rather the development team worked on things where there are no workarounds - e.g. condensing and part extraction for section players with divsis.

Who cares if this takes 5 seconds to work round (which is an over-estimate IMO) if you save 5 hours somewhere else in the complete process?

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Re: how can I write “p dolce” on top of a crescendo?

Post by tristis »

Rob Tuley wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 11:06 pm
I can't speak for other people, but I would rather the development team worked on things where there are no workarounds - e.g. condensing and part extraction for section players with divsis.

Who cares if this takes 5 seconds to work round (which is an over-estimate IMO) if you save 5 hours somewhere else in the complete process?
I completely disagree with this: I'd like the team to get the architecture and the basics right. Generally of course they're to be commended for ambition but then there are these silly limitations. They're also the kind of things that tend to hang around for years.

It's worth remembering that a lot of the workarounds (for all kinds of things) don't work in Dorico Elements. I only have to use Elements at all because of the licensing restrictions for Pro but lots of people (while not being entitled to expect all the features of Pro) have to put up with these annoyances all the time. The other thing is that when the basics aren't covered, it's going to annoy a lot of beginners and newcomers. The fact that some of the most regular posters in this forum seem completely unable to empathize with these people (like an adult who's forgotten what it was like to be a child) doesn't help.

For me the degree to which workarounds are unnecessary is the measure of the quality of notation software.

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Re: how can I write “p dolce” on top of a crescendo?

Post by Claude Lapalme »

In Pro, all that needs to be done is ungroup the dynamics when one needs dynamics on both sides of a staff. You type p dolce <, ungroup and move p dolce above with the properties panel. To move a dynamic mark after that, yes, one needs engrave mode, but if it's just a modifier to a hairpin, it will position itself under the hairpin. I have never had to use text, but I admit that is in Pro.
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Re: how can I write “p dolce” on top of a crescendo?

Post by Rob Tuley »

tristis wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 2:41 am
It's worth remembering that a lot of the workarounds (for all kinds of things) don't work in Dorico Elements.
If every Elements user had their own "must have" missing feature added to it, there would be no different between Elements and Pro.

Without going down the "licensing issues" rabbit-hole, it's your choice how you make the trade off between the money cost of Pro, and the time cost of the limitations of Elements (or even SE).

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