First post in the lounge, allow me to explain

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artisan
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First post in the lounge, allow me to explain

Post by artisan »

Hello fellow forumites, I have here a post from the C6 forum that I guess should be here:

https://www.steinberg.net/forum/viewtop ... 19&t=22088

What I must do however is agree with the OP on every count and I hereby request that all future postings adhere to basic principles of human decency and no more "google it" please.

Cheers

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Bane
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Re: First post in the lounge, allow me to explain

Post by Bane »

I agree with 100% Brains. But if someone asks what a term means, when they have a search engine, it comes across as them being lazy and ourselves doing their research for them. If I ask what is the best way to mic my drumset, and someone tells me to google it, that would be unfair. However if someone asks what a DAW is, that would be a time to make use of Google. I've seen similar to both scenarios on this forum.
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Re: First post in the lounge, allow me to explain

Post by artisan »

Agreed master, you are almost always right (can't think of if you were ever wrong that I've read what you've written) however there is no requirement for anyone to answer any post and if the premise is that a newbie, eg new user(name) has asked a question and yet it took a potential answerer time to read, then the possibility is such that the reader may need to take some time out and alas make some music....

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Bane
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Re: First post in the lounge, allow me to explain

Post by Bane »

You make some valid points. I could really see it either way. However, I'm not seeing enough unnecessary "Google it" or "RTM" replies to warrant complaints. That's just my opinion. ;) Rather we should be teaching our newbies proper forum etiquette: not to whine when our first response isn't a miracle solution. I've dealt with a couple of those recently. :roll:
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Re: First post in the lounge, allow me to explain

Post by Conman »

With, say, Reaper or Sequel etc, newbie questions can be met mostly as they are.
With Cubase there should not be that many newbies. It's not necessarily the financial cost.
The cost of running such a complex program should first be to learn or have obtained a reasonably savvy knowledge of engineering expertise, which need not be to a brilliant degree. Second to have researched or spent a couple of weeks with the manuals (which is very, very important) and to run through the tutorials or just routined oneself with the basic set ups that a typical studio might need, be it a Project, personal or commercial studio.
Third to spend some time on the web researching computer requirements and procedures for the type of sofware installed and what the typical problems might be.


Just because a DAW is a hundred times smaller than an old analog studio doesn't mean it's a hundred times simpler to learn.So, taking that in consideration anyone calling themselves a "newbie" means that someone hasn't done the exercises outlined above. ie: (is taken as) they are treating Cubase as a rich kid's toy. This also happened in analog days too. Any fool with a half million dollars could buy a studio and tie himself up in knots and ending up asking the guys who spent ten years mastering their expertise to bail them out when they should have spent a couple of years in college learning engineering instead. I know. I worked in a couple of studios like that. Studios would be calibrated and speakers put in the right place then the "owner" would move the speaker because he couldn't see the drummer through the control room window.

What I'd like to see is more politeness from newbies when faced with an answer that they do not like or understand, given by engineers who donate their time and expertise for FREE.
The attitude seems to be that us "experts" :mrgreen: should be grateful to get such clever questions from persons not bothered to learn the basics.

Saying all that the occasional new user who comes in and has obviously thought about, or rethinks his question eventually is usually accorded a very polite welcome and the proper advice is given. The attitude being that this is a guy who will listen and not constantly moan for weeks about what colour his drum track is.

And when he gets the right colour drum track and finds he can't moan about the product any more he complains about the FORUM posters. :mrgreen:
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Re: First post in the lounge, allow me to explain

Post by alexis »

I think there's a learning curve for newbies in how to post their questions and use a forum such as this, not just in learning their DAW/audio engineering, and the like. They may not yet have years and years of learning web search techniques, or even how to post in fora where the most common term isn't "SICK!!!", or something.

IMO, holding them to those standards is just as inappropriate as expecting them to understand why (for example) they get a "funny sound" when they combine their original track with a delayed one. I'm fine with posters who don't know basic things. When I started out, people like Bas, Woodlock, Neil Wilkes, vic_france (and many others) answered my "dumbest" questions imaginable with respect and patience. I try to remember that, every time I read a post like "NO SOUND DUDE - URGENTTT!!!
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Re: First post in the lounge, allow me to explain

Post by Conman »

New users are OK. Users who think "computers are easy so Cubase is easy" and who assume every oversight on their part (ok, in Cubase there are many things to overlook) is a bug in the program.
They sort of come under the header of "Complete beginners" and a forum for a product like Cubase should really have a section for complete beginners.

Simple questions from complete beginners are often more served by saying read the manual than trying to explain from in the forum.

Probably changing the name of the manual to "handbook" would encourage more complete beginners to use it more effectively. I think it's a less offensive sounding admonishment.
In fact I'll try to reprogram myself to use the word handbook. 8-)

If I get a funny anything, never mind sound, the last place I'd go to for a solution would be a forum. Everyone should have enough Cubase using friends out there locally to go to first off.
If the problem is anything like complex then by the time forum members have worked out what most OPs actually want fixing the OP has fixed it, been on holiday and got married. :mrgreen:
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Bane
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Re: First post in the lounge, allow me to explain

Post by Bane »

Good points Conman and Alexis. Might I add.....

I think that what starts tension between noobies and those attempting to help is confusion concerning the subject at hand. Let's face it, most of us that go to help were rather recently somewhat nooby ourselves. I myself have had no formal education in this area, and can speak only from the little experience I have had using the application with the equipment I have. When the noob, starts complaining about us misreading the topic, giving incorrect advice, or exchanging inside jokes with other members :roll: it does prompt the helping party to be rude and give the noob the RTM advice. The same goes for those attacking Steinberg for an oversight on their part. Most of the time, the newbies set the tone for the type of answers they will get. Those who are humble and cordial get friendly and informative answers most of the time. Those other ranting, profane fools don't.
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Jarno
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Re: First post in the lounge, allow me to explain

Post by Jarno »

Bane wrote:Good points Conman and Alexis.
Indeed (I'm really having hard time to figure out how many times I've agreed with Conman). And good points from you too, Bane!
Bane wrote:most of us that go to help were rather recently somewhat nooby ourselves
Well ... I used to be a nooby back in 1980's ... if that's recently or not is a matter of opinion. The information available back then was quite limited and I really had to do my own homework to learn sound engineering. And this is one of the reasons why I hate this:
Bane wrote:the noob, starts complaining about us misreading the topic, giving incorrect advice, or exchanging inside jokes with other members
If someone "misreads" the topic, it's one of two cases:
1. The question asked in the topic was badly formed. Probably because the person who made the question doesn't even understand what (s)he's asking.
2. The person who replied indeed misread the topic but answered in good faith.
In both cases it really sucks, when noobies starts complaining.
Bane wrote:Those who are humble and cordial get friendly and informative answers most of the time.
At least they do from me. Those who aren't find me acting like Nate II. I know I shouldn't, but ...
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Re: First post in the lounge, allow me to explain

Post by artisan »

RTM answers are really ignorant and unnecessary, since for a long time Steinberg have always included a Getting Started booklet that not once have I ever seen a "professional" refer as advice.

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Re: First post in the lounge, allow me to explain

Post by Shinta215 »

artisan wrote:RTM answers are really ignorant and unnecessary, since for a long time Steinberg have always included a Getting Started booklet that not once have I ever seen a "professional" refer as advice.
RTM refers to the ACTUAL Cubase manual, not the Getting Started booklet.
People ask: "How do I do this."
And it's sometimes spelled clearly out in the manual.

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Split
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Re: First post in the lounge, allow me to explain

Post by Split »

RTFGSM just doesn't do it really :lol:
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Bane
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Re: First post in the lounge, allow me to explain

Post by Bane »

Of course, it would be nice if everybody would try everything in their power to get the answer before using our time by coming here. Unfortunately, not everyone does. Should we tell a user to read the manual? If we feel like it, yes. Nothing is stopping anyone else from saying it, no matter what we say here. Should Steinberg intervene?
Heck no!! You run a few of us diligent posters off and the Cubase forums are nonexistent. They know that.

Also think about this: some of these idiots don't know to check the manual! Reference here-first page in the lounge.

This is another case of users being too sensitive to the forum interaction taking place here. It's just a forum; there are others to get info on Cubase from. No matter what's said here, it rolls off my back. I hope it's the same with the adult noobs here as well. Or these forums have bigger issues.

BTW, anyone noticed that this topic's predecesor was moved to News and Announcements?!!
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artisan
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Re: First post in the lounge, allow me to explain

Post by artisan »

Split wrote:RTFGSM just doesn't do it really.
Hi Split,

Unfortunately on this occasion you got it wrong, since it would actually be RTFGSB, as detailed by Shinta.

Cheers

oh and about the manual, it is a very beautiful literary work in PDF format that comes with a 30 day trial of supplementary software applications known as DAW programs:

http://www.google.com/search?client=ope ... 799e6c6367

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Re: First post in the lounge, allow me to explain

Post by Shinta215 »

Bane wrote:BTW, anyone noticed that this topic's predecesor was moved to News and Announcements?!!
Noticed that myself. Odd...

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Re: First post in the lounge, allow me to explain

Post by Shinta215 »

artisan wrote:Unfortunately on this occasion you got it wrong, since it would actually be RTFGSB, as detailed by Shinta.
Actually, RTFGSG.

It's a guide (says on the front cover, just checked). ;)

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Split
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Re: First post in the lounge, allow me to explain

Post by Split »

Shinta215 wrote:
artisan wrote:Unfortunately on this occasion you got it wrong, since it would actually be RTFGSB, as detailed by Shinta.
Actually, RTFGSG.

It's a guide (says on the front cover, just checked). ;)
In that case the other one would be RTFOM
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Re: First post in the lounge, allow me to explain

Post by Shinta215 »

What about:

RTFHSSEM
RTFMR
RTFMDM
RTFPiR
RTFRCDM

:?:
:lol: :lol:

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Re: First post in the lounge, allow me to explain

Post by artisan »

Come on Shinta, how can you expect anyone to know what those acronyms mean, please explain for the younglings, as well as masters alike.

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Bane
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Re: First post in the lounge, allow me to explain

Post by Bane »

I'm sure they don't mean anything relevant! :lol:

RT(f)M it will always be, I'm afraid. The "please consult your lovely handbook" or something to that effect that Jarno always says works too! :P
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Re: First post in the lounge, allow me to explain

Post by Conman »

ACRONYM:

Awesome Cubase Really Only Needs Your Money. :mrgreen:
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artisan
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Re: First post in the lounge, allow me to explain

Post by artisan »

Bane wrote:The "please consult your lovely handbook" or something to that effect that Jarno always says works too!
But this is the point though, when I started using Cubase it was junk literally, then V4 came out and things looked up.

It was then that I had purchased Cubase Studio (the reason I can post here in the first place) and it came with the Getting Started guide which I read cover-to-cover.

I don't know if current versions have this but simply dissing people over the manual when arguably the guide is more useful to begin is really counter IMO to good forum relations.

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Re: First post in the lounge, allow me to explain

Post by Conman »

Steve Fogal wrote:Ha! Took me a long time before I could figure out how to record a single track in Cubase VST! I didn't know jack sh!t at the time about computers much less recording with them. I had only recently bought my very 1st computer just before buying Cubase.

Among the responders in my 1st very sheepish newbie posts were Paul Woodlock, Mike Elliot, and a handul other now long time members.

Flat out, those of you who treat newbies as if they should automatically know what you know...or even the think they should automatically even know basics and post stupid questions in your presence, or on your watch, are just plain d!ck heads.
Took me a long time too. Didn't need to go to a forum. My own head was enough.
Cubase is not a toy and takes years to learn and with new users it's far easier to get answers local to yourself with less "noise" than go to an anonymous forum where the users have got to translate what is actually up with any one given problem.
In fact this forum especially should encourage new users to go elsewhere as they'd probably get more immediate answers.
And just because it's a new user doesn't mean they're not necessarily D1ckeds either.

If this was a forum for guys who spent millions on old analog gear who didn't have a clue you'd have quite a different attitude.
But.
Cubase isn't any simpler than old analog gear.
If someone hasn't got a clue and can't be bothered doing the necessary studies why should anyone else be bothered helping them? We are. And we do. And occasionally a stupid question gets a deserved ribbing but nobody DIES but you wouldn't think so from some newcomer reactions (and some forum ones too).
Paying money for Cubase is not enough. We do need to know a little blood has been spilt as well. :mrgreen:

And I think the forum has never been as lovey-dovey as it is now. :mrgreen: Used to be full of miseryarrses who were full of themselves. Took me decades to post here. I just didn't dare.
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Bane
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Re: First post in the lounge, allow me to explain

Post by Bane »

+1 Conman. Well said.
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Re: First post in the lounge, allow me to explain

Post by Shinta215 »

artisan wrote:Come on Shinta, how can you expect anyone to know what those acronyms mean, please explain for the younglings, as well as masters alike.
Look at the rest of the documentation that comes in the Cubase manual pack.
Then add the standard "RTF..." ;)

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