Documentation

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Re: Documentation

Post by Daved » Thu Dec 16, 2010 10:00 pm

Well I suppose it's good that this stuff made the transition, as it's all we've got. Any hope of getting some real tutorials, or an illustrated/cross-indexed manual?
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Re: Documentation

Post by Mike O » Fri Dec 17, 2010 6:16 am

I REALLY hate to complain. But as a new user I just don't understand the lack of a comprehensive manual. Well maybe if I'm honest and step back from the frustration I do.....I certainly appreciate what it must have taken to get the OSX version together.

Anyway, at great risk of exposing myself as clueless I have not been able to find ANYWHERE how to configure soundcard/output in Wavelab 7.

I think probably I just hit the perfect storm and purchased right when the new forums went up. With the old forums not available, I can't search and find an answer. The videos referenced and all responses reference, "if you know 6 you won't have any trouble". And that probably the most useful to the core user community. But what is a new user to do?

Is the manual for version 6 on-line and downloadable?

Anyway, I'm on a Mac Pro 3.33 hex; Lynx 16 working fine in Cubase, Logic, etc. If any of you good people have time to point me in the right direction I would appreciate it!

Thanks!
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Re: Documentation

Post by LutzR » Fri Dec 17, 2010 9:23 am

Mike O wrote: Is the manual for version 6 on-line and downloadable?
yes, you can find the pdf here:

ftp://ftp.steinberg.net/Download/WaveLa ... s_English/
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Re: Documentation

Post by Arjan P » Fri Dec 17, 2010 11:54 am

Mike O wrote:The videos referenced and all responses reference, "if you know 6 you won't have any trouble". And that probably the most useful to the core user community. But what is a new user to do?
Don't worry, you're not alone. Many, many old users from WL6 and before are having a hard time coming to grips with WL7, since it is really very different from anything before. And that was certainly made known to Steinberg in the old forum too..
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Re: Documentation

Post by Daved » Fri Dec 17, 2010 2:00 pm

Lutz - thanks for the tip and link...

Steinberg: C'mon, get serious... The docs for WL6 are terrific, so how could you possibly pretend what you shipped with WL7 is even adequate? THIS is what's missing.

Now that I've seen that you're capable of creating professional quality documentation for WL6, I feel totally ripped off by the weak materials supplied with WL7. Honestly a huge portion of this work could be recycled to great effect, making the lack of tutorials much less of a problem.

For kicks I went back and opened docs for other DAWs I use, including 2 that cost 1/5 what WL7 sells for, and another on par. WL7 loses on all counts for reasons clearly stated by users here since launch: no illustrations, no cross-references, no organized overview of the app, or suggested workflows.

So the sad part is that while WL6 is presumably a less powerful, less advanced tool than WL7, it is far more usable out of the box thanks to better supplied materials. In light of these materials the repeated defenses of the terrible help system (yes, it sucks all the way around - its' not just the odd terminology and lack of illustration, but organization and relevance too) as a replacement for real docs is heartbreaking. It's obvious now that THEY know what good docs are and how to make them. Is Steinberg's deliberately playing dumb to defend a misguided cost-saving scheme or does the company just thinks users are idiots who won't notice or don't know the difference?

For months I gave Steinberg a pass on this, since the mac version was a monumental task and the gui seemed different enough to warrant a major re-write. And to save some trees, I thought it worth giving the help system a fair shakedown, and take advantage of Philippe's generous, extensive guidance here. Having seen that something better already exists, I must now apologize to other users for my defense of the release materials. I didn't realize that they had something so much better to start from! In comparison, what shipped with WL7 is an embarrassment. No wonder you guys were so upset! I'm gobsmacked... [and to be clear, I am still not requesting printed materials, a pdf like WL6 manual is just fine for me].

I will try hard to better respect my elder users going forward. You guys were right, what shipped as documentation was a sad joke on all of us.

Steinberg, you can make us stop whining about this easily: Use WL6 manual as a template, and starting at the top work through the changes and drop in new screen shots. Problem solved, costs saved.
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Re: Documentation

Post by Vocalpoint » Fri Dec 17, 2010 4:53 pm

Daved wrote:Having seen that something better already exists, I must now apologize to other users for my defense of the release materials. I didn't realize that they had something so much better to start from! In comparison, what shipped with WL7 is an embarrassment. No wonder you guys were so upset!
And some of us continue to be very upset...I did purchase the new Ask Video Wavelab 7 tutorial series and it has been very good to try and come to grips with this overblown "window" fest (is it just me or have I done 2 or 3 times as many mouse clicks in 7 than I did in 6?)

However - having no detailed, properly structured operations manual is a sad sad state of affairs. To me it says volumes about where Steiny's head is at and what real value you get for your money.

I do understand the willingness to try and implant a help system that may try to mimic the real thing...but it's not the "real" thing and it ain't working for me....

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Re: Documentation

Post by Arjan P » Fri Dec 17, 2010 7:47 pm

For anyone wondering what was said in the most extensive thread (6 pages!) about this in the old forum:
http://forum.cubase.net/phpbb2/viewtopi ... 3b259e2927
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Re: Documentation

Post by wizardofice » Sat Dec 18, 2010 1:45 pm

There is no way to deny that a manual is sorely needed. The frustrations are getting deeper all the time. The complaints still come in every day. Steinberg could end a lot of the frustrations by simply admitting they need a manual and announce they are working on one. Then all the customers who feel they lost something will know that eventually they will get the full use of the program.

I too got the Ask video and I do recommend it. But it will only help with the basics and still will not fully explain the vast power of Wavelab.
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Re: Documentation

Post by markino » Sun Dec 19, 2010 10:50 am

But Steinberg did something (sarcastic), they put up a new Forum: clean slate! :lol:
Last edited by markino on Sun Dec 19, 2010 3:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Documentation

Post by Vocalpoint » Sun Dec 19, 2010 3:22 pm

markino wrote:But Steinberg did something, they put up a new Forum: clean slate! :lol:

Well...I fail to see how a new forum will help me be a better WL user...but I guess anything is possible! :?
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Re: Documentation

Post by greggybud » Fri Dec 24, 2010 5:27 pm

I would hope...maybe I assumed...with a new forum would be better communication with Steinberg. The very least moderators can do is acknowledge a common issue and explain that they have passed it along to Germany. I mean how hard is that?

This isn't the old forum. Every one of us here I think are paying customers. I would like better communication from Steinberg. If it wasn't for PG's support I would probably have ditched Wavelab years ago.

Yes, users here are a small fraction of the WL market. But some are very WL savy and are having issues simply because the documentation doesn't exist. What I find sad is that Steinberg apparently finds the cost to use the WL6 manual as a base, and make the necessary changes to transform it into a WL7 manual. It's not like you have to start from scratch when you have an excellent WL6 manual.
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Re: Documentation

Post by wavcatcher » Sat Jan 08, 2011 5:52 am

I also bought the ASK video series WL7 tutorials. As a recent Peak convert to Wavelab 7 they are the only real option I had available to help me transition. They are excellent and I recommend them but it is sad that I had to buy 3rd party training materials because the program didn't include proper documentation.

The program Wavelab 7 is absolutely the greatest 2 track editor I've used. It is amazing. Equally amazing is the complete lack of customer support or assistance by neglecting to make a proper printed manual for such a professional level piece of software. There is no excuse, a $600 software app that is as complex as Wavelab 7 should absolutely come with a printed complete manual.

So I ask, is there a plan to actually create a printed manual for Wavelab 7, and will it be given to users or are we going to have to pay even more to buy documentation. If that's the case, I think every user should start phoning Steinberg with their questions until they realize how much more phone support will cost them than supplying printed manuals to their paid customers! I mean its not like they can tell users to read the manual for even the most simple, entry level tasks!

And while I appreciate all the help PG is on the forums, I also understand his time is better spent bug-fixing and further developing the app, he shouldn't be expected to be the entire "online manual and teaching resource" as well!
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Re: Documentation

Post by wizardofice » Sun Jan 30, 2011 12:13 pm

All this time and still no announcement of a manual being produced? I am still waiting for this before I purchase Wavelab 7.
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Re: Documentation

Post by Arjan P » Sun Jan 30, 2011 3:16 pm

Since Steinberg considers the present document to be a 'manual', and the fact that the recently released Cubase 6 also comes without a printed manual, I think you'll be waiting for a very long time...

Luck, Arjan
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Re: Documentation

Post by Johnny B Richman » Sun Jan 30, 2011 9:16 pm

C6 manual has (at least) one significant difference - it contains screenshots.

The debate was about content - not printed vs. PDF (which can be printed by the user if needed anyway)
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Re: Documentation

Post by Arjan P » Sun Jan 30, 2011 10:47 pm

Oh yes, the Cubase 6 manual really is a manual, like the C5 one was. Like I said, Steinberg considers the present WL7 document a manual, so I doubt it will ever progress to really becoming one. I was merely referring to paper since wizardofice's remark was unclear in that respect.

Luck, Arjan
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Re: Documentation

Post by wizardofice » Sun Feb 06, 2011 6:40 pm

I was referring to a MANUAL...not the silly crap they have available which is in no way shape or form a manual. It is a last minute, by the seat of the pants, waste of time embarrassment. Any product of this magnitude needs a real manual. Paper is nice but not what I am after. I can print it if needed but a manual must be available before that can be done.
I just cannot understand why Steinberg is just sitting on this. They know a manual is needed. If it will take a while fine, tell us so we know it is coming. I cannot imagine purchasing such a program without a manual.
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Re: Documentation

Post by wizardofice » Sun Feb 06, 2011 6:44 pm

Arjan P wrote:Since Steinberg considers the present document to be a 'manual', and the fact that the recently released Cubase 6 also comes without a printed manual, I think you'll be waiting for a very long time...

Luck, Arjan

Unfortunately you may be right here. But then Steinberg will also be waiting a long time to get my money as well. If cost was an issue then I could understand. Having a pdf is better for that, but then again having the new programs like Cubase 6 available for download would do this as well and that is not available either. But in the end even if I had to pay for the manual it would be a requirement before I would purchase the program.
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Re: Documentation

Post by wizardofice » Sun Mar 06, 2011 4:41 pm

looks like a book on Wavelab 7 is going to be released soon.

http://www.amazon.com/WaveLab-Power-Mat ... 872&sr=1-1


Not by the people who made the program but hopefully it can fill the gap.
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Re: Documentation

Post by suntower » Wed Mar 09, 2011 8:36 pm

I just want to add my voice to those who are VERY unhappy with the WL7 docs. I upgraded straight from 4 to 7... using a 2 step process. Frankly, I had no real need of the new features in WL7 over WL6.

Now? I wish I had simply gotten the WL6 upgrade and waited for WL8... simply because of the docs. I have struggled for days trying to work through the WL7 'manual' and then downloaded the WL6 PDF. WOW! What a difference.

For the life of me I can't see why they didn't just cut n' paste the good bits from the WL6 PDF. How hard could that have been?

It's so typical 'programmer'... 95% of the effort into the code and 5% into the docs. There's no excuse for crap docs in 2011. Certainly not with a program as deep as WL.

Really puts a stain on what -was- the one area of Steinberg I thought was stainless: Wavelab.



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Re: Documentation

Post by Arjan P » Thu Mar 10, 2011 12:33 am

suntower wrote:For the life of me I can't see why they didn't just cut n' paste the good bits from the WL6 PDF. How hard could that have been?
My idea exactly. Start from the WL6 base document and work through the changes toward WL7 one by one. How hard can it be? Anyway, it's unlikely to happen I think, so I'll make do with exploration i.s.o. information.

Luck, Arjan
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Re: Documentation

Post by wizardofice » Mon Mar 14, 2011 1:23 pm

More like 1 % on the manuals. Unfortunately Wavelab 7 elements has turned into nothing more than a cd burner for me. I use wavelab 6 essentials for all of my processing then switch to 7 only because they could never figure out how to get 6 to burn a cd in anything other than xp.

It is corporate failures like this which has caused me not to upgrade Cubase or to purchase any of the Halion programs.(Instead I just got Kontact.) Good documentation there. I could use the functions of the full version of Wavelab 7 but the lack of a manual has ended that for me. The length of time since Steinberg became aware that the Manual was needed by their customers causes me to feel that they simply do not care about it or me. (a customer who has spend a good bit of money for their products)
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Re: Documentation

Post by fenderchris » Thu Mar 17, 2011 12:14 pm

wizardofice wrote: Unfortunately Wavelab 7 elements has turned into nothing more than a cd burner for me. I use wavelab 6 essentials for all of my processing then switch to 7 only because they could never figure out how to get 6 to burn a cd in anything other than xp.

It is corporate failures like this which has caused me not to upgrade Cubase or to purchase any of the Halion programs.(Instead I just got Kontact.) Good documentation there. I could use the functions of the full version of Wavelab 7 but the lack of a manual has ended that for me. The length of time since Steinberg became aware that the Manual was needed by their customers causes me to feel that they simply do not care about it or me. (a customer who has spend a good bit of money for their products)
My sentiments exactly, although I haven't bought Wavelab-7 due to the manual deficiencies, and Wavelab-6 CD burning works on my Windows-7 64-bit system (most of the time!).
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Re: Documentation

Post by wizardofice » Sat Mar 19, 2011 2:15 pm

I got Wavelab essentials upgrade for $50 and it is worth that for the cd burning. What I do is work on the montage with 6 then save it and bring up 7 just to burn the cd. It is for me nothing more than a cd burning program that will burn from a wavelab montage.

I think I could use the full version but with no way to learn about it I hesitate to spend over $500. (no upgrade path from Wavelab Elements 7) If there was a manual I would likely do so. However I find that with this and any other program, the "help" system is a total and complete waste of time and is always worthless. Even with programs such as Windows and Microsoft office which have a much more evolved and better thought out help system. Unless you already know the program it is worthless. It is sometimes a good plus to a manual but with any deep program a manual is absolutely essential and no company should make the major mistake of releasing a program for sale without one.
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Re: Documentation

Post by Donx » Thu Mar 24, 2011 8:25 pm

I have just realized that the on-line interactive approach that PG uses to develop Wavelab does not lend to proper timely documentation of the features and implementation. New modifications are taking place with each update (April is the next). When PG changes something in the program to facilitate a users needs or ideas, the documentation doesn't change to keep up.
With no printed manual, it is essential to have a proper on-line manual that is constantly updated and advertised as such. If the online manual is properly advertised with a link and promoted to be frequently updated as programming modification arise, then this could be built into the users agenda, to update the manual. Or better yet, email the users and tell them their is an update manual available at the same location they got the original. (since not every user is part of this forum)

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