16 bits export just as big as 24 bits when replacing

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16 bits export just as big as 24 bits when replacing

Post by The Sound Post » Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:20 pm

Alright, picture this: your mix is done. You export your mix as 24 bits. Then you realize the client wants 16 bits. So you export as 16 bits, replacing the original file. You look at the size: it hasn't gotten smaller. It's exactly the same size as it would be as a 24 bits file. Huh?

Then you export your mix again, this time naming it differently, but still 16 bits. The new file is smaller, as it should be.

What's up?

Martijn.
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Re: 16 bits export just as big as 24 bits when replacing

Post by The Sound Post » Tue Sep 18, 2012 12:45 pm

No one care to reproduce? Could be just Mac.
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Re: 16 bits export just as big as 24 bits when replacing

Post by Fredo » Tue Sep 18, 2012 2:35 pm

What if you reimport the file? What does the header say?
16 or 24 bit?

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Re: 16 bits export just as big as 24 bits when replacing

Post by The Sound Post » Tue Sep 18, 2012 2:46 pm

16. It says 16 in Nuendo, Quicktime and the Finder. But the size is 1.5 times what it should be. Have you tried it?
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Re: 16 bits export just as big as 24 bits when replacing

Post by The Sound Post » Thu Sep 20, 2012 8:31 am

Is there anyone who could reproduce this behavior? Maybe we can confirm this a s a bug...
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Re: 16 bits export just as big as 24 bits when replacing

Post by goodbyenine » Thu Sep 20, 2012 3:39 pm

Just a guess but I imagine this is a mac os thing. The replace function my leave the current file blocks still allocated to the drive even though they are now zeros.

What happens if you copy the strange 16 file to another drive. Does it shrink?

Just a guess as I say.
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Re: 16 bits export just as big as 24 bits when replacing

Post by The Sound Post » Thu Sep 20, 2012 3:48 pm

Hi, thanks for replying.

I tried copying to a different disk, but the file stays the same size.

You're on Mac, right? Would you be willing to try and reproduce this anomaly? I'm curious if it's just my computer or all Macs or Mac as well as PC.

Best regards,

Martijn.
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Re: 16 bits export just as big as 24 bits when replacing

Post by The Sound Post » Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:48 am

No one?
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Re: 16 bits export just as big as 24 bits when replacing

Post by neilwilkes » Wed Sep 26, 2012 9:03 am

Cannot repro this on XP SP3.
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Re: 16 bits export just as big as 24 bits when replacing

Post by The Sound Post » Wed Sep 26, 2012 9:43 am

Thanks for reporting. I can imagine it's Mac only. Are there any Mac users out there that want to give it a whirl?
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Re: 16 bits export just as big as 24 bits when replacing

Post by MattiasNYC » Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:39 pm

The Sound Post wrote:Thanks for reporting. I can imagine it's Mac only. Are there any Mac users out there that want to give it a whirl?
Is the file renamed or does it have the same name as the previous version?

I've encountered instances where OSX has played back the wrong mp3 file simply because the new one had the same name as the old. This was a few years ago of course, but could it be something similar in that it reports the size of the old file? Perhaps you could try it but giving the new file a different name.
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Re: 16 bits export just as big as 24 bits when replacing

Post by The Sound Post » Wed Sep 26, 2012 3:03 pm

Well, it goes like this:

I use Export Audio Mixdown and create a file named Mix_01.wav. 24 Bits.

Then I change my mind and use Audio Mixdown again, this time changing 24 bits to 16 (either after using a dither plugin or just truncating, the result is the same). I hit 'Export', after which Nuendo asks: Overwrite? I say yes and the new file is written over the old one.

The new file thus has the same name as the original and is indeed 16 bits. The size, however is 1.5 x what it should be. And since there is only 1 file, there is no chance of playing back the wrong file.

Like I said earlier, if I give the file a new name (Mix_02.wav) before exporting it as 16 bits, the file size is correct. I just want to be able to overwrite a file that has the wrong format.

It is only recently that I noticed that the file size is incorrect. I installed Mountain Lion the other day, so that could be part of the problem. Now I think about it, I should try using a different application and do the same thing. Maybe I will. I'll report back...
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Re: 16 bits export just as big as 24 bits when replacing

Post by jgilhart » Wed Sep 26, 2012 7:05 pm

Hey Martijn,

I'm on a Mac 10.7.4, Nuendo 5.5.4

I just exported a 24bit mix, then re-exported/replace with setting @ 16bit. All worked as expected. The resulting 'replaced' file showed up as 16bits after the 2nd bounce/replace.

That being said, I had problems with the 'replace' functionality a little while back (5.5.2? 5.5.3?). At the time I didn't notice your 24bit/16bit issue, but I was ending up with corrupted files. At that point I started creating new files instead
of 'replacing'.

Best,
Jeff
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Re: 16 bits export just as big as 24 bits when replacing

Post by The Sound Post » Wed Sep 26, 2012 9:51 pm

Hi Jeff,

Thanks for testing and replying!

You said that everything went as expected. Is the file size as small as it should be? Because my resulting file, even though it shows up as 16 bit, is as big as a 24 bit file.

Thanks,

Martijn.
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Re: 16 bits export just as big as 24 bits when replacing

Post by Chewy Papadopoulos » Wed Sep 26, 2012 9:51 pm

I just tried to duplicate on my Mac, and everything worked the way it should.

It sounds like you may be having disk directory issues-- have you run DiskWarrior or fixed your permissions lately? Run a maintenance utility?

Good luck!

Chewy

**edit** based on your question to Jeff above, 24-bit file= 8.1 M; 16-bit= 5.3 M.
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Re: 16 bits export just as big as 24 bits when replacing

Post by The Sound Post » Wed Sep 26, 2012 10:03 pm

Hi Chewy,

Weird. Are you running 10.8.2 as well? Because it started after upgrading from Lion.

Permissions are fixed on a regular basis. Maintenance utility no.

Thanks for chiming in.

Martijn.
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Re: 16 bits export just as big as 24 bits when replacing

Post by Chewy Papadopoulos » Wed Sep 26, 2012 10:51 pm

Naw, I'm still on 10.7.

Strongly recommend DiskWarrior and Onyx-- running them every month or so really knocks out the little unexplainable OS glitches that pop up every now and then.

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Re: 16 bits export just as big as 24 bits when replacing

Post by MattiasNYC » Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:01 am

The Sound Post wrote:Well, it goes like this:

I use Export Audio Mixdown and create a file named Mix_01.wav. 24 Bits.

Then I change my mind and use Audio Mixdown again, this time changing 24 bits to 16 (either after using a dither plugin or just truncating, the result is the same). I hit 'Export', after which Nuendo asks: Overwrite? I say yes and the new file is written over the old one.

The new file thus has the same name as the original and is indeed 16 bits. The size, however is 1.5 x what it should be. And since there is only 1 file, there is no chance of playing back the wrong file.

Like I said earlier, if I give the file a new name (Mix_02.wav) before exporting it as 16 bits, the file size is correct. I just want to be able to overwrite a file that has the wrong format.

It is only recently that I noticed that the file size is incorrect. I installed Mountain Lion the other day, so that could be part of the problem. Now I think about it, I should try using a different application and do the same thing. Maybe I will. I'll report back...
Ok, I'm sorry if I missed the part in bold earlier, but just to reiterate though:

Are you sure the actual file ends up actually being larger than it says, rather than just being reported by the OS as being larger?

It sounds very close to the problem I encountered with mp3's a while ago...
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Re: 16 bits export just as big as 24 bits when replacing

Post by jgilhart » Thu Sep 27, 2012 2:38 am

Hi Martijn,

I just checked again and the 16bit file was the same size as the 24bit. I copied them both to another drive and the size info remained the same.

Jeff
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Re: 16 bits export just as big as 24 bits when replacing

Post by The Sound Post » Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:57 am

jgilhart wrote: I just checked again and the 16bit file was the same size as the 24bit. I copied them both to another drive and the size info remained the same.
Well, that ain't right. That's exactly what I'm talking about.

I ran some more tests:

Nuendo 5.1 does the same thing as 5.5.4.

Using Quicktime, however, the file does get smaller when overwriting a 24 bit file.

Interesting...

Martijn.
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Re: 16 bits export just as big as 24 bits when replacing

Post by The Sound Post » Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:00 am

Lydiot wrote: Are you sure the actual file ends up actually being larger than it says, rather than just being reported by the OS as being larger?
I'll send a friend of mine a file and ask him how it shows up on his PC. Maybe that will give us a clue.
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Re: 16 bits export just as big as 24 bits when replacing

Post by The Sound Post » Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:00 pm

I sent the file to a friend of mine who works with PT on PC. He says the file reads 16 bit and still has the size of a 24 bit file on his Windows machine. No surprises there.

I think this should be classified as a bug that occurs on Mac systems (be it Lion or Mountain Lion). Fredo, any chance of Steinberg looking into this matter? Maybe it could be added to the BugBase?

Thanks and best regards to everyone that responded in this thread,

Martijn.
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Re: 16 bits export just as big as 24 bits when replacing

Post by maxhowarth » Tue Oct 02, 2012 3:01 pm

that's very interesting. good catch.
best wishes
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Re: 16 bits export just as big as 24 bits when replacing

Post by MattiasNYC » Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:34 pm

What has support said?
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Re: 16 bits export just as big as 24 bits when replacing

Post by The Sound Post » Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:52 pm

Nothing so far :-)
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