metadata inherit from source file.

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kamalski
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metadata inherit from source file.

Post by kamalski » Fri Oct 04, 2013 4:06 am

after assembling a CD montage with ISRC codes CD text and other meta data i want to render to a new montage and audio file, while dithering the whole lot. the result i want to open as a new montage where the single clips are rendered into a 16bit wav file. in the file format menu under the Meta-data tab i choose:Inherit from source file.
but when i open the resulting new montage all meta data are gone.
any clue here?

thanks
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Re: metadata inherit from source file.

Post by PG » Fri Oct 04, 2013 6:16 am

The option "open as a new montage" creates a new montage from scratch, hence does not inherit stuff from your source montage.

But one question: why do you want to replace all your clips with one single 16 file?
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Re: metadata inherit from source file.

Post by kamalski » Fri Oct 04, 2013 9:41 am

the mon with the single clips contains 24 or 32bit clips. there are also still vol adjustments of each clip (more word length...) for final balance before it all gets finally dithered to the CD Master montage.

so what does that function: "Inherit Meta data from source file" do, if it is not getting the data across to the new montage? what is inherited from where??

thanks
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Re: metadata inherit from source file.

Post by PG » Fri Oct 04, 2013 10:32 am

the mon with the single clips contains 24 or 32bit clips. there are also still vol adjustments of each clip (more word length...) for final balance before it all gets finally dithered to the CD Master montage.
Then add a dithering stage when rendering the montage, whether in the montage master section, or in the global section. What you try to do complicates things with no advantage.
so what does that function: "Inherit Meta data from source file" do, if it is not getting the data across to the new montage? what is inherited from where??
The rendered audio files inherit, not the montage.
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Re: metadata inherit from source file.

Post by kamalski » Sat Oct 05, 2013 4:54 am

hi phillipe.
thanks for the answer. however, i do not get it. you write:
PG wrote:Then add a dithering stage when rendering the montage, whether in the montage master section, or in the global section. What you try to do complicates things with no advantage.
thats exactly what i am doing. so i don't see how you offer an easier alternative.
let me go through the process:
i have each track (clip) in a 24 or 32bit mastered format lined up in the mon as the CD should be including th emeta data. it looks like this:
WL8 source mon1.png
hi bit res source montage
(160.12 KiB) Not downloaded yet
the last step is to do final relational vol adjustments between the clips and dither it all down to 16bit.
i set the rendering dialog as follows:
WL8 render dialog1.png
render dialog
(45.54 KiB) Not downloaded yet
WL8 format dialog1.png
format dialog
(19.42 KiB) Not downloaded yet
this results in a) a complete 16bit file of the whole CD b) a new montage with that file as the only clip:
but all meta data from the source mon are missing. (somehow i can not upload another picture)
....continued next post.
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Re: metadata inherit from source file.

Post by kamalski » Sat Oct 05, 2013 4:57 am

.....continued:

this results in a) a complete 16bit file of the whole CD b) a new montage with that file as the only clip:
WL8 result mon1.png
resulting mon
(165.9 KiB) Not downloaded yet
but as you can see all meta data from the source mon are missing.

that is the process and I am very interested if you have a procedure that allows me to do this with a resulting CD montage that includes the ISRC code CD text and all meta data.

thanks for your help
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Re: metadata inherit from source file.

Post by Justin P » Sat Oct 05, 2013 5:14 am

I don't really see the need to convert your 24-bit montage to a 16-bit montage. I think most people keep their montage at 24-bit but just make the end file result as 16-bit with a dither plugin inserted.

If you need to make a DDP image, audio CD, or render WAV/AIFF/mp3 files that are 16-bit, you can simply render them to your hard disk from the 24-bit montage and do what you need with them. Just be sure there is a dither plugin as your last insert that is dithering to 16-bit. If you want a single file of the entire CD at 16-bit, you can render the whole 24-bit montage as one file (with dither plugin as last insert), but to add it back to a new montage to make your DDP, CD or render files is an extra step that isn't needed in my opinion.

I think what PG is saying (and I agree), it seems like an extra step to make a 16-bit montage from your 24-bit montage, and then export the files that you need.

In the 16-bit montage that you pictured, there is just one clip (or so it seems). One clip can't contain metadata for all the songs as it's just one file.

Maybe I'm missing something but I think that making a 16-bit montage is an unnecessary step unless you are trying to do something special that I'm not understanding.

If you want your rendered files to have metadata embedded, you may have to look at the special metadata section that is new in Wavelab 8.

I have mine setup so that whenever I render a WAV/mp3 etc. from the 24-bit montage, it automatically embeds any metadata that is allowed in the file format, such as artist, song name, album name, track number/track total, ISRC, artwork etc.

It's really nice once you make a preset for the info you normally use.
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Re: metadata inherit from source file.

Post by kamalski » Sat Oct 05, 2013 5:30 am

hmm....
so what you are saying is that i should either a) burn an audio CD master or b) a DDP file
directly from the source mon (hi bit clips) while having any last processing and the dithering stage inserted in the last slot.
that will result in a master that contains all meta data of the source mon and applies the dithering in the rendering process of the audio CD master or DDP master image.
do get that right?

thanks
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Re: metadata inherit from source file.

Post by Justin P » Sat Oct 05, 2013 5:47 am

kamalski wrote:hmm....
so what you are saying is that i should either a) burn an audio CD master or b) a DDP file
directly from the source mon (hi bit clips) while having any last processing and the dithering stage inserted in the last slot.
that will result in a master that contains all meta data of the source mon and applies the dithering in the rendering process of the audio CD master or DDP master image.
do get that right?

thanks
I think you got it. Just be sure that your dither plugin is the last insert on your master chain, after your final limiter. I happen to use a limiter that has dither built in which is simpler to me. In Wavelab 8, there is the new montage master, original master section and also a dedicated dither slot if you choose to use it so you have some options of where to do your final limiting and dither.

Either way, if you burn a CD or make a DDP from your 24-bit montage, it will contain any CD-Text that you have entered in the CD-Text fields assuming your CD writer supports CD-Text. CD-Text is different than metadata for an mp3, so if you plan to render files (WAV/AIFF/mp3) direct from your montage, you need to use the metadata section that is new to Wavelab 8. In that section you can tell Wavelab to translate certain CD-Text into metadata for your rendered WAV/AIFF/mp3 files. Any metadata that those files support will be added. You have to take a little time and set it up how you like. If you don't setup a metadata preset, or fill them in manually for each project, your rendered files will likely contain no metadata.

For example, I created a metadata preset that automatically takes the data I entered as CD-Text info for album/artist/song/ISRC and translates it to metadata for when I render WAV/AIFF or mp3 files right to my hard disk. It can even add the track number and total number of tracks for your mp3 files if you set it up correctly.

You need to apply the preset for each montage, but this is how I have been working WL8 and it works well for me. After I have all my CD-Text entered, and montage assembled, then I apply the metadata preset and it populates the fields I regularly use. From here, you can easily add or remove fields for unique situations.

In Wavelab 7, I experimented with the "Inherit metadata from source file" option, but it didn't do what I would expect. The new metadata workflow is exactly what I was hoping for.

I'll attach a screen shot so you get an idea of what I'm talking about as it's not near the CD-Text box.
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Re: metadata inherit from source file.

Post by kamalski » Sat Oct 05, 2013 5:52 am

hi Jperkinski.
i checked it out and was able to create a DDP master with the result containing all meta data and an image file that was dithered down to 16bit.
however:
the resulting image was also strangely -2db. i am not aware of having any attenuation inserted anywhere. this is how the master section looks:
master section for dithering.png
(210.22 KiB) Not downloaded yet
any ideas?
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Re: metadata inherit from source file.

Post by Justin P » Sat Oct 05, 2013 5:57 am

kamalski wrote:hi Jperkinski.
i checked it out and was able to create a DDP master with the result containing all meta data and an image file that was dithered down to 16bit.
however:
the resulting image was also strangely -2db. i am not aware of having any attenuation inserted anywhere. this is how the master section looks:
master section for dithering.png
any ideas?
That is strange about the -2db. So when you are listening to the montage directly, it's a certain level, but when you listen to a DDP image, it's -2dB than the live montage?

I suppose there are some variables that could cause it but nothing I see on that screen shot. Are you using the montage master at all? I assume that is where your final limiter is since I don't see one on your master section.
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Re: metadata inherit from source file.

Post by kamalski » Sat Oct 05, 2013 7:37 am

in this case i don't need a final limiter as i know the levels of the clips. there is only the dither in the master section. i have no idea where the level reduction could stem from. (the -2db are approximate, not precise)
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Re: metadata inherit from source file.

Post by S-EH » Sat Oct 05, 2013 11:24 am

Hi,

I think you should test with another short Montage and make a DDP
if you don't change any Envelope, gain, level, pan or not using EFX
then there shouldn't be any differens between Montage and DDP
-2 dB sounds very strange try to break it down in your work.

regards S-EH
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Re: metadata inherit from source file.

Post by kamalski » Sat Oct 05, 2013 11:45 am

i'll run some tests tomorrow
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Re: metadata inherit from source file.

Post by kamalski » Sun Oct 06, 2013 9:56 am

very strange. that -2db result seems to be a fluke. didn't happen in other montages, only one specific one.
but i can not explain where the gain reduction originates.
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Re: metadata inherit from source file.

Post by Arjan P » Sun Oct 13, 2013 9:18 pm

Do you by any chance have montage track level or montage master level (not master section) sliders down to -2 dB in this particular montage?
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Re: metadata inherit from source file.

Post by kamalski » Sun Oct 13, 2013 9:40 pm

no that wasn't it. i checked all the obvious. i think it is just a corrupt mon.
when i copied the clips to a new mon it worked fine.
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