Nuendo excessive memory consumption

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Nuendo excessive memory consumption

Post by Hugh » Fri Dec 17, 2010 7:23 pm

Hello,
Referring to this post from the old forum,
http://forum.nuendo.com/phpbb2/viewtopi ... 6&start=75
Timo noted that Steinberg are looking into the memory consumption issues with Nuendo 4/5 and large track counts. We have already lost two Nuendo seats to PT9 because the editors who do the content cuts and project prep on their MacBookPros can't load the sessions.

This issue is not going away. Waiting for several things - MacOS 64bit version, more memory in laptops, and whatever else - will not fix the problem. The only times our sessions hit a large rackmount desktop with huge ram installed are during recording because we're forced into it by Nuendo, and during final mix using PT HD. Many intermediate editing and production steps are done on laptops with 4G of ram and will stay that way for a while. As they upgrade their laptops track counts always increase and libraries always get bigger, so they will never be able to load a large Nuendo session. Remember - if the audio is in the pool, even as an unused library track, it contributes to memory consumption.

Someone from Steinberg please advise on your progress with this issue - it's not going away and has already crippled two of our Nuendo seats. In addition as folks discover that PT9 is actually usable they won't go back to Nuendo because of the ubiquity of PT in the US.

Sincerely,
Hugh Healy
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Re: Nuendo excessive memory consumption

Post by MattiasNYC » Fri Dec 17, 2010 8:42 pm

Assuming there will be a response to the question I'd like to add the following for consideration:

My understanding is that the new video engine runs Quicktime, which doesn't run 64bit natively - is that correct?

If so, surely the solution to the problem won't be switching to 64-bit OS', right?
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Re: Nuendo excessive memory consumption

Post by DG » Fri Dec 17, 2010 11:47 pm

Lydiot wrote:Assuming there will be a response to the question I'd like to add the following for consideration:

My understanding is that the new video engine runs Quicktime, which doesn't run 64bit natively - is that correct?

If so, surely the solution to the problem won't be switching to 64-bit OS', right?
No, wrong. The video engine uses a wrapper so that it works in the 64bit version of Nuendo.

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Re: Nuendo excessive memory consumption

Post by MattiasNYC » Sat Dec 18, 2010 3:17 am

Ah. I thought there was an issue with the wrapper using a Windows 64 bit OS.... I guess I was wrong then... Or perhaps it was Decklink related...
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Re: Nuendo excessive memory consumption

Post by Fredo » Sat Dec 18, 2010 8:46 am

Lydiot wrote:Ah. I thought there was an issue with the wrapper using a Windows 64 bit OS.... I guess I was wrong then... Or perhaps it was Decklink related...

Yes, that is correct. Since Decklink workds with QT and/or has no wrapper for QT, external video through a Decklink card it doesn't work.

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Re: Nuendo excessive memory consumption

Post by missionrec » Sat Dec 18, 2010 6:59 pm

Hey Fredo,
Any comment on the original post in this thread??

Hopefully . .

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Re: Nuendo excessive memory consumption

Post by MattiasNYC » Sat Dec 18, 2010 7:19 pm

Fredo wrote:
Lydiot wrote:Ah. I thought there was an issue with the wrapper using a Windows 64 bit OS.... I guess I was wrong then... Or perhaps it was Decklink related...

Yes, that is correct. Since Decklink workds with QT and/or has no wrapper for QT, external video through a Decklink card it doesn't work.

Fredo
So my question still stands for those who have been recommended to get the Decklink cards then, right? Because I recall many having been recommended to get these cards specifically to help with a professional solution to playing back video with good resolution and performance....
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Re: Nuendo excessive memory consumption

Post by cubendo » Sat Dec 18, 2010 7:26 pm

missionrec wrote:Hey Fredo,
Any comment on the original post in this thread??

Hopefully . .
Looks like the "stay on topic" directive never made the transition...

The underlying coding which created the memory consumption issues affect everything from session length to cursor jitter during tracking. It is the most serious correction to resolve for the future of this application.
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Re: Nuendo excessive memory consumption

Post by Bodo » Mon Dec 20, 2010 8:59 am

Hugh wrote:
Someone from Steinberg please advise on your progress with this issue - it's not going away and has already crippled two of our Nuendo seats. In addition as folks discover that PT9 is actually usable they won't go back to Nuendo because of the ubiquity of PT in the US.
Hi Hugh,

have you read the statement from Thorsten Marx in the old forum?
Thorsten Marx wrote: [...]
We actually plan to evaluate ways to reduce the applications memory footprint. The resulting changes however can only be implemented in the next big update. It's not possible to do these changes in a short term maintenance updates.
[...]

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Re: Nuendo excessive memory consumption

Post by Fredo » Mon Dec 20, 2010 9:02 am

I think the complete answer is appropriate here:
Hi,
the waveforms RAM consumption is the same as it was in Nuendo 4. The Nuendo 5 mixer consumes more memory, due to the new routing features.
We actually plan to evaluate ways to reduce the applications memory footprint. The resulting changes however can only be implemented in the next big update. It's not possible to do these changes in a short term maintenance updates.

We recommend Windows 64 bit operating systems to users who work on very large projects because the application memory is not limited to 2GB by the OS. As a result, the application runs more stable when large projects are used.

Best regards,
Thorsten

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Re: Nuendo excessive memory consumption

Post by MattiasNYC » Mon Dec 20, 2010 6:14 pm

Fredo wrote:I think the complete answer is appropriate here:
Hi,
the waveforms RAM consumption is the same as it was in Nuendo 4. The Nuendo 5 mixer consumes more memory, due to the new routing features.
We actually plan to evaluate ways to reduce the applications memory footprint. The resulting changes however can only be implemented in the next big update. It's not possible to do these changes in a short term maintenance updates.

We recommend Windows 64 bit operating systems to users who work on very large projects because the application memory is not limited to 2GB by the OS. As a result, the application runs more stable when large projects are used.

Best regards,
Thorsten
Well then you understand my concern when it won't work as a solution for all those that have a Decklink card, right? All of those people are basically stuck between a rock and a hard place: Swap hardware which opens the door for new conflicts, or swap software, which I'm guessing Steinberg would rather they don't.

It's just a bit weird when you claim that Steinberg spent weeks on tweaking support for old video cards (OpenGL 1.x) and then let the memory issue apparently take the back seat.... At least that's how it looks....

But while we're on the topic: Seeing that Cubase 6 is likely to be announced soon, are we leapfrogging significantly again or can we expect a Nuendo 6 with this issue fixed then within a reasonable time frame?
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Re: Nuendo excessive memory consumption

Post by Fredo » Tue Dec 21, 2010 9:05 am

Lydiot wrote:Well then you understand my concern when it won't work as a solution for all those that have a Decklink card, right?
We have 4 Win7_64bit systems in use, running Nuendo32bit with Decklink Studio cards. Works like a charm.
This allows you to use up to 4GB of memory, which is largely sufficient for the most demanding projects.

But yes, you need to "upgrade" your systems in order to take full advantage of the possibilities.
But know that Steinberg is not that much different than other companies. In order to run the latest ProTools, Photoshop, Premiere and many other applications, Win7 is the only choice you have.


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Re: Nuendo excessive memory consumption

Post by Bernard Focquet » Tue Dec 21, 2010 10:18 am

Hi,
the waveforms RAM consumption is the same as it was in Nuendo 4. The Nuendo 5 mixer consumes more memory, due to the new routing features.
We actually plan to evaluate ways to reduce the applications memory footprint. The resulting changes however can only be implemented in the next big update. It's not possible to do these changes in a short term maintenance updates.

We recommend Windows 64 bit operating systems to users who work on very large projects because the application memory is not limited to 2GB by the OS. As a result, the application runs more stable when large projects are used.

Best regards,
Thorsten
In order to be clear - what's your definition of a "very large project" ?

Cheers,
Bernard
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Re: Nuendo excessive memory consumption

Post by Fredo » Tue Dec 21, 2010 1:33 pm

Bernard Focquet wrote:In order to be clear - what's your definition of a "very large project" ?
That is relative, it depends on the nature of the project.
More specific how intensively you are using features which consume much memory.
You can bring down a single track N4or N5 project on XP down with a few instances of certain VSTI's...
But at the same time, you can run many hundreds of tracks on that same machine without problem.

Look at it this way; Nuendo is a car without engine. The engine is your computer.
Want to drive faster or you want to carry more heavy loads, then you need a more performant engine.



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Re: Nuendo excessive memory consumption

Post by jorisdeman » Tue Dec 21, 2010 1:51 pm

This was a FR on the previous forum as well, but might as well repost it.

I was wondering if we could get a project info dialogue that shows a number of things about the project, so that it is easier to troubleshoot problems.
It can sometimes be quite difficult on a session to figure out who or what the culprit is; is it excessive memory use on waveforms? Is it a memory leak in a plug-in or a particular memory hungry Vsti?
As an end user, it is practically impossible to figure out, other than looking at the task manager; but this only tells you how much Nuendo as a whole is using; no detail.

So a dialogue with something like this would be incredibly useful:
-memory used on waveform cache
-memory used on pool database
-vst plug in memory use, with perhaps a top 5 of plugs that use the most, with an unfolding view that can show it per plug-in used in the session
-the same for VSTi's (this should be separate, as I'm sure there are a fair few people that never use them)
-memory used in total for all vsti/vsti's loaded
-memory used on automation data
-memory used on midi data
-total memory for session
-total memory free in program (with a warning if you're running low)

For example, I recently found out a plug-in I use often probably has a memory leak (db_glitch, though the new version might have fixed this). But on a Vsti heavy session with nearly a hundred plug-in instances of various types, it can be a lengthy process to troubleshoot.
A window with a breakdown like this will make it easier for both SB and the end user to troubleshoot problems.
In fact, it could stop people from posting issues that aren't in fact bugs, but people running out of memory and not realizing it.
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Re: Nuendo excessive memory consumption

Post by Fredo » Tue Dec 21, 2010 2:26 pm

jorisdeman wrote:I was wondering if we could get a project info dialogue that shows a number of things about the project, so that it is easier to troubleshoot problems.
I kinda like the idea. We are using Logitec G15 keyboard which display the CPU and RAM consumption, so I see the advantage. That being said, XP is as dead as can be (and it should have been buried long time ago, if only Vista wasn't that bad) and W7 will take over extremely fast. Which means, by the time this feature is build, RAM will become a non-issue. But I support the idea. Even when people are "forced" to W7, this doesn't mean they will replace their old machines and/or they will add RAM to their machines.

Fredo

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Re: Nuendo excessive memory consumption

Post by MattiasNYC » Tue Dec 21, 2010 3:10 pm

Fredo wrote:
Lydiot wrote:Ah. I thought there was an issue with the wrapper using a Windows 64 bit OS.... I guess I was wrong then... Or perhaps it was Decklink related...

Yes, that is correct. Since Decklink workds with QT and/or has no wrapper for QT, external video through a Decklink card it doesn't work.

Fredo
Fredo wrote: We have 4 Win7_64bit systems in use, running Nuendo32bit with Decklink Studio cards. Works like a charm.
This allows you to use up to 4GB of memory, which is largely sufficient for the most demanding projects.

But yes, you need to "upgrade" your systems in order to take full advantage of the possibilities.
But know that Steinberg is not that much different than other companies. In order to run the latest ProTools, Photoshop, Premiere and many other applications, Win7 is the only choice you have.


Fredo
I wish you would spell it out using simpler language Fredo. So the following is correct then:

'You can't use 64-bit Nuendo 5.x on a Windows OS and use Decklink to play back external video.'

Right?
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Re: Nuendo excessive memory consumption

Post by Fredo » Tue Dec 21, 2010 3:52 pm

Lydiot wrote:'You can't use 64-bit Nuendo 5.x on a Windows OS and use Decklink to play back external video.'

Right?

That is the political twist you want to give it, and it is not correct. It would be more correct to say:
Suppose QT releases a 64bit version for Windows tomorrow, then tomorrow you would have a working 64-bit Nuendo 5 version using a Decklink to play back external video.


Or better: You can't play any QT movie on W7-64bit.

The solution for the moment is to use the 32-bit version of Nuendo 5 on the W7-64bit OS.

Fredo

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Re: Nuendo excessive memory consumption

Post by MattiasNYC » Tue Dec 21, 2010 5:56 pm

Fredo wrote:
Lydiot wrote:'You can't use 64-bit Nuendo 5.x on a Windows OS and use Decklink to play back external video.'

Right?

That is the political twist you want to give it,
So it's been less than a week on the new forum and this is how you want to start it off? I just asked you to clarify what you were saying because it wasn't particularly direct and clear. Is that too much to ask from a site admin?
Fredo wrote:and it is not correct.
If it is not correct it then means that:

'You can use 64-bit Nuendo 5.x on a Windows OS and use Decklink to play back external video.'

Is the above true?
Fredo wrote: It would be more correct to say:
Suppose QT releases a 64bit version for Windows tomorrow, then tomorrow you would have a working 64-bit Nuendo 5 version using a Decklink to play back external video.
Talk about politics!!!

If there was a 64bit Windows QT release tomorrow, then tomorrow we'd "have a working 64-bit Nuendo 5 version using a Decklink to play back external video."

I was, however, asking about today.
Fredo wrote:Or better: You can't play any QT movie on W7-64bit.
Huh?
Fredo wrote:We have 4 Win7_64bit systems in use, running Nuendo32bit with Decklink Studio cards. Works like a charm.
You see why it's confusing?
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Re: Nuendo excessive memory consumption

Post by cubendo » Tue Dec 21, 2010 6:07 pm

It seems the directive to upgrade systems in an attempt to extend the useability of Nuendo 4/5 due to the excessive RAM use is a copout. The cure is better coding, not insisting every user must upgrade their OS and computer system only to gain a degree of headroom.

The attitude that the coding can be inefficient because you can force users to compensate with continual hardware upgrades sets a very bad precedent.

We know this coding change implemented for Nuendo 4 under the guise of improved waveform display is now manifesting itself as numerous issues, not to mention that waveform display is not necessarily any better than Nuendo 3.
Decisions were made to increase horizontal zoom at the expense of vertical zoom and a 400% increase in RAM consumption and peak file size. It may not have mattered much in 2006 due to CPU speeds being the major limiting factor to project capability, but it matters a great deal today.

The bottom line is that the attitude and condition is now costing Steinberg customers.
Last edited by cubendo on Tue Dec 21, 2010 6:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Nuendo excessive memory consumption

Post by Fredo » Tue Dec 21, 2010 6:12 pm

Lydiot wrote: You see why it's confusing?
No, I can't see it.

Let's start again.
You can run any 32-bit application on a W7-64bit OS.
Which means that, on Win7-64bit, you can run Nuendo 32 bit and QT 32bit.
Nuendo32 => QT32=> Decklink

If you want to use Nuendo 64bit on Win7-64bit, than you can do that.
Steinberg has build an internal QT wrapper, so the user can see "emulated" video within Nuendo.

Since there is no 64bit version of QT, there is no way you can get QT to communicate with Decklink.
Nuendo64=> QT?? = > Decklink

As soon as there is a 64bit QT Windows version, this will be possible:
Nuendo64=> QT64 = > Decklink

So, again. The problem is that there is no 64bit version of QT available for Windows.


Hope this makes it clear.
Fredo

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Re: Nuendo excessive memory consumption

Post by cubendo » Tue Dec 21, 2010 6:19 pm

Unfortunately, what is clear is that for many users wanting compatibility, large project capability, and sample-accurate vsti's on a new system or old, Nuendo 3 is the solution.
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Re: Nuendo excessive memory consumption

Post by MattiasNYC » Tue Dec 21, 2010 6:25 pm

Fredo wrote:
Lydiot wrote: You see why it's confusing?
No, I can't see it.
Then you should re-read my post a couple of times. I used quotes of what you said for a reason.

But I understand what the issue is now, it's just that I wish you'd make simpler statements that are factually correct rather than not.
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Re: Nuendo excessive memory consumption

Post by jorisdeman » Tue Dec 21, 2010 6:35 pm

Fredo wrote:
jorisdeman wrote:I was wondering if we could get a project info dialogue that shows a number of things about the project, so that it is easier to troubleshoot problems.
I kinda like the idea. We are using Logitec G15 keyboard which display the CPU and RAM consumption, so I see the advantage. That being said, XP is as dead as can be (and it should have been buried long time ago, if only Vista wasn't that bad) and W7 will take over extremely fast. Which means, by the time this feature is build, RAM will become a non-issue. But I support the idea. Even when people are "forced" to W7, this doesn't mean they will replace their old machines and/or they will add RAM to their machines.

Fredo
Hey Fredo, thanks for your response.
I think it will be very useful regardless of 64 bit or not. Even with 64 bit systems, people will run into ram issues.
Cheaper machines and mobo's currently have an 8gb memory limit, which with a couple of sample-heavy VSTi's isn't a whole lot. Like you say, the fact that practically unlimited memory is available, doesn't mean everybody will have the funds to build or buy such machines, and the info supplied in a dialogue box like that could help troubleshoot issues far beyond just simple ram issues.
Unfortunately, what is clear is that for many users wanting compatibility, large project capability, and sample-accurate vsti's on a new system or old, Nuendo 3 is the solution.
Not trying to be facetious here, but can you clarify a few of those?
Been using N5 for a while now, and have not noticed some of these issues...
-compatibility ; in what respect?
-sample accuracy...not noticed this, and I use *a lot* of Vsti's.
I've not ran into the waveform cache memory issues yet, but that is perhaps because the majority of my sessions are more midi oriented.
As mentioned, I have ran into memory issues due to (afaik) plug-in use and vst plug-in memory leaks.
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Re: Nuendo excessive memory consumption

Post by Fredo » Tue Dec 21, 2010 7:26 pm

Lydiot wrote:Then you should re-read my post a couple of times. I used quotes of what you said for a reason.
Yeah, but you isolated this sentence: Or better: You can't play any QT movie on W7-64bit from the portion above. (Hence the "or")

What I meant is that no 64bit application can play QT on WIn7-64bit.

However, I can understand that it can become confusing when you don't know the details of the issue.
It just wasn't clear for me that your really didn't know how it all worked.
We have a bunch of people which use these exact techniques (hence the "political"-comment) for getting their point across over and over again.

Fredo

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