negative sidechaining?

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funkygas
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negative sidechaining?

Post by funkygas » Sat Feb 08, 2014 3:53 am

I had an effect on an old guitar FX unit that would only only start the delay once the input had stopped. Is there a way to do this in C7?

I've got a reasonable understanding of sidechaining - enough to know that you use one input to send/trigger an effect on another channel (thanks google). But that triggers ON the event, I want it to trigger an 'off' signal during the event, then activate AFTER the event.

I've tried using a gate to trigger an event, but I couldn't get it to work. I'm not even sure it can. If the effect (lets say delay) is only active once the event has finished, there is no input for the delay to echo or effect anymore.

Any ideas?
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vespesian
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Re: negative sidechaining?

Post by vespesian » Sat Feb 08, 2014 4:02 am

Use a delay with built-in ducking?

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theRoyal1
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Re: negative sidechaining?

Post by theRoyal1 » Sat Feb 08, 2014 4:08 am

1 way-
Create a second track that will trigger the comp/gate, set to pre, lower volume to 0 now insert Kick, snare, Hat or whatever you will use to trigger it.

Since your issue is you want it on at certain points then just have the trigger placed where ever you want it off.

Another way-
You can also use the SC button now within your track setting then have another track trigger via send... I've tried this and they both work :geek:

Another other way.
Use the Sidechain button on the actual Compressor
like explained HERE
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funkygas
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Re: negative sidechaining?

Post by funkygas » Sat Feb 08, 2014 2:26 pm

Thanks for the tips - I'll give 'em a try!

Yes - a delay with built in ducking (I remember now!). Mmm, now to find one . . .

I've seen the YouTube video, but it's all about triggering the FX to work ON the event. I saw another YouTube clip that seemed to do what I as after, but I couldn't replicate it. His guitar track was mega-compressed (blocks of sound), which may have been the difference.

I'm trying it on a vocal track. I thought of something last night while lying in bed pondering. Don't try to 'negatively' trigger a delay effect, but using a vox triggered compressor to squash the delay effect thus releasing it to work in that 'negative' space. No vocal, no compression / no compression, delay then sounds.

Makes sense in my head . . . . .! Now I just have to give it a try.
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Re: negative sidechaining?

Post by Soul-Burn » Sun Feb 09, 2014 12:08 am

Create an FX channel with:
Delay
Compressor with SC enabled.

Send your channel to the FX channel.
Send you channel to the Compressor.
Set the compressor with a low threshold and high compression.

The signal flows to the chain all the time, getting delayed. However, while there is sound, the delay gets compressed heavily, until it's hardly audible. When the sound stops, the compressor opens up and the delayed signal is audible.

This also works great for reverb on vocals etc.

vespesian
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Re: negative sidechaining?

Post by vespesian » Sun Feb 09, 2014 3:08 am

funkygas wrote:Thanks for the tips - I'll give 'em a try!

Yes - a delay with built in ducking (I remember now!). Mmm, now to find one . . .

I've seen the YouTube video, but it's all about triggering the FX to work ON the event. I saw another YouTube clip that seemed to do what I as after, but I couldn't replicate it. His guitar track was mega-compressed (blocks of sound), which may have been the difference.

I'm trying it on a vocal track. I thought of something last night while lying in bed pondering. Don't try to 'negatively' trigger a delay effect, but using a vox triggered compressor to squash the delay effect thus releasing it to work in that 'negative' space. No vocal, no compression / no compression, delay then sounds.

Makes sense in my head . . . . .! Now I just have to give it a try.
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Re: negative sidechaining?

Post by andyath » Sun Feb 09, 2014 5:08 am

I just use automation for things like that myself less messing about.

Just leave it sent and automate the the fx track however you want mute off,fade in whatever suits.
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funkygas
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Re: negative sidechaining?

Post by funkygas » Sun Feb 09, 2014 7:34 pm

andyath wrote:I just use automation for things like that myself less messing about.

Just leave it sent and automate the the fx track however you want mute off,fade in whatever suits.
Never thought about that - I'll give it a go! Not sure it's less messing about, as you'd have to manually adjust the on/off of the auto to make it happen. But, it'd be incredibly precise!
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funkygas
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Re: negative sidechaining?

Post by funkygas » Sun Feb 09, 2014 7:45 pm

Thanks for the tip Soul-Burn! I had just found a Google post somewhere that was the same as your suggestions and I got it to work (hooray!).

My only problem is that I'd like the compressor to release quicker (I've set the 'release' & 'hold' to zero) so that the delay kicks quicker. It'd be nice to have it react as quick as the C7 Gate does, but I realise they are different animals.

Now for more experimenting . . . . .
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andyath
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Re: negative sidechaining?

Post by andyath » Sun Feb 09, 2014 8:49 pm

funkygas wrote:
Never thought about that - I'll give it a go! Not sure it's less messing about, as you'd have to manually adjust the on/off of the auto to make it happen. But, it'd be incredibly precise!
Depends how use you are with automation not very hard to do..give it a try like you said it will be very precise n I think you will get your desired results. ;)
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Re: negative sidechaining?

Post by Soul-Burn » Sun Feb 09, 2014 8:50 pm

You should try compressing it less, so it will release at a higher threshold than complete silence. It should not completely kill the effect, but rather duck it.
From my experience, it sounds more pleasing to keep some time in the release, and if the threshold is high enough, it should sound good.

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Re: negative sidechaining?

Post by funkygas » Mon Feb 10, 2014 11:35 am

Yes, good thought. I'll keep experimenting - it may need to keep a bit of fx during the signal to help sweeten the transition.

Having said that - I've also tried, I've also been experimenting with adding a 'gate' after the compressor to completely cut out the compressed delay signal (keeping the voice track ultra clean). The thought was that the quicker responding gate may . . . . um . . . . . make it good (?) . . . .

Never any harm with experimenting
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Re: negative sidechaining?

Post by funkygas » Mon Feb 10, 2014 11:45 am

Andyath - I'm going to give the automation a try today. I'm really interested in the comparison.

As much as I am enjoying 'experimenting' with the vocal track triggering the SC compressor, I think the fact my track is not mega-compressed (eg not solid blocks of sound) makes the SC a little confused at times, resulting in the delay effect triggering at unwanted times.

As you mentioned, the Automation idea gives you complete control! It's just a matter of following the phrasing of the lyrics and drawing a line. I might even try doing it in real time.
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Niles
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Re: negative sidechaining?

Post by Niles » Mon Feb 10, 2014 11:53 am

Maybe I'm missing something here, but why not just use Cubase's stock delay on an FX channel with sidechain enabled, and send a feed to the delay and a feed to the sidechain from the track you want to be delayed.
That should make the delay duck when the original signal is incoming and rise when there's no signal.

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Re: negative sidechaining?

Post by Infinite Beat » Mon Feb 10, 2014 12:47 pm

Niles wrote:Maybe I'm missing something here, but why not just use Cubase's stock delay on an FX channel with sidechain enabled, and send a feed to the delay and a feed to the sidechain from the track you want to be delayed.
That should make the delay duck when the original signal is incoming and rise when there's no signal.
I think the delay only will be triggered/activated when the signal is recieved, not ducked. You will need the compressor after the delay on the FX channel to reduce the signal if I understand things about sidechain right.
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Re: negative sidechaining?

Post by Soul-Burn » Mon Feb 10, 2014 2:46 pm

So I've checked it... and Niles is absolutely correct.
Watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqZEVZnsyJ8
And this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUcMwnnHBZU

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Re: negative sidechaining?

Post by Infinite Beat » Tue Feb 11, 2014 1:16 pm

Soul-Burn wrote:So I've checked it... and Niles is absolutely correct.
Watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqZEVZnsyJ8
And this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUcMwnnHBZU
Great news! Looks really easy!

This made me pretty confused about sidechaining... :)
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