Newbie question: several sample rates in 1 project?

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Newbie question: several sample rates in 1 project?

Post by Niekbeem » Mon Aug 25, 2014 5:22 pm

I'm planning on buying the full version of Wavelab, but in my trial version I'm experiencing problems with the sample-frequencies-handling:

My system runs @ 48KHz, and when opening 44.1KHz files into Wavelab, Wavelab won't play them.

In Steinbergs video "Wavelab introduction/Professional Editing" at t.c. 3:00 they say it's possible to play files with different sample frequencies than the systems' frequency......but not on my system!? Wavelab even randomly crashes when I try to play files which are nog @ 48KHz.......

Any help welcome.
Thanks very much.

Niek/ Amsterdam.
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Re: Newbie question: several sample rates in 1 project?

Post by Arjan P » Mon Aug 25, 2014 8:06 pm

The crashes must have another reason, but the reason WL doesn't play 44.1 files is that it doesn't automatically convert sample rates. You'll have to use a resampler plugin in the master section to convert to your native 48 kHz rate.
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Re: Newbie question: several sample rates in 1 project?

Post by Niekbeem » Mon Aug 25, 2014 8:12 pm

Thanks Arjan P,
I'll check my plugins; maybe my 32bit plugins, which are at the same time being shared with NUENDO by VST-BRIDGE, cause Wavelab to run unstable, and when it comes to a problem (that conversion issue I initially stated) Wavelab decides to crash?

Thanks for your help.
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Re: Newbie question: several sample rates in 1 project?

Post by stingray » Tue Aug 26, 2014 8:46 am

Niekbeem wrote:My system runs @ 48KHz, and when opening 44.1KHz files into Wavelab, Wavelab won't play them.
If you are attempting to play 44.1kHz files in the audio editor, probably not a specific Wavelab issue but rather related to your audio hardware or audio hardware settings. If you are attempting to play different sample rates within the same montage, this is not directly possible without first converting the files (see the Wavelab documentation).
Last edited by stingray on Tue Aug 26, 2014 8:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Newbie question: several sample rates in 1 project?

Post by Niekbeem » Tue Aug 26, 2014 8:53 am

Thanks Stingray,

I've put Steinbergs "Chrystal Resampler" in one of the the Master Section's effects slots, and ditched its sample frequency to 48KHz, and now I can play 44.1KHz files in the Audio File Workspacde without issues.

I've not yet used the Audio Montage functions yet, but in Steinbergs video it clearly states that it's possible to have different files with different sample frequencies next to each other.........I'll find ou! ;-)

Thanks!
Niek/ Amsterdam.
Last edited by Niekbeem on Mon Sep 01, 2014 2:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Newbie question: several sample rates in 1 project?

Post by stingray » Tue Aug 26, 2014 8:56 am

Niekbeem wrote:I've not yet used the Audio Montage functions yet, but in Steinbergs video it clearly states that it's possible to have different files with different sample frequencies next to each other.........I'll find ou! ;-)
Yes, but the files have to be converted in order to do that (the video is slightly misleading).
Niekbeem wrote:I've put Steinbergs "Chrystal Resampler" in one of the the Master Section's effects slots, and ditched its sample frequent to 48KHz, and now I can play 44.1KHz files in the Audio File Workspacde without issues.
In the audio file editor you would normally be able to play files at any of the standard sampling rates (depending upon your audio hardware and audio hardware settings). Check your hardware settings and the audio settings in Wavelab.

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Re: Newbie question: several sample rates in 1 project?

Post by Niekbeem » Tue Aug 26, 2014 9:12 am

I think I'm beginning to understand that Wavelab doesn't allow "different sample rates next to each other" ......
One has to convert those different sample rates to "your system's sample rate" before Wavelab can process these files?

.....but why do Steinberg say in their video: "Another revolutionary enhancement of Wavelab 8 is the ability to import audio-files at their native sample rates" ......and they show a Audio Montage existing of 4 clips which seem to have 4 different sample rates.........Have I been fooled? :o

Anyway; Wavelab seems to be a quite nice program, in my opinion we do not have to be fooled for "enhancements" which are not enhancements but rather "very normal workflows"?

Thanks!
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Re: Newbie question: several sample rates in 1 project?

Post by Niekbeem » Tue Aug 26, 2014 9:14 am

(the video is slightly misleading)
You're right.
Those marketeers @ Steinberg didn't have to do that.

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Re: Newbie question: several sample rates in 1 project?

Post by Arjan P » Tue Aug 26, 2014 11:46 am

stingray wrote:In the audio file editor you would normally be able to play files at any of the standard sampling rates (depending upon your audio hardware and audio hardware settings).
No, this is only true with a sample rate converter somewhere in the playback chain or an audio interface that automatically adjusts it's sample rate. There is nothing Wavelab does 'automatically' to change the playback sample rate to the native one.
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Re: Newbie question: several sample rates in 1 project?

Post by stingray » Tue Aug 26, 2014 2:39 pm

Arjan P wrote:
stingray wrote:In the audio file editor you would normally be able to play files at any of the standard sampling rates (depending upon your audio hardware and audio hardware settings).
No, this is only true with a sample rate converter somewhere in the playback chain or an audio interface that automatically adjusts it's sample rate. There is nothing Wavelab does 'automatically' to change the playback sample rate to the native one.
That's why I said "normally", and "depending upon your audio hardware and audio hardware settings". I should have added that I use Wavelab with RME interfaces on PC (Babyface and Fireface UC) and both switch sample rates automatically and flawlessly according to the sample rate of the current file I am playing in the audio editor. Similarly, the onboard audio hardware of the PC also accommodates switching between sample rates. Most recent audio hardware / driver software should be capable of this, and AFAIK Wavelab has been designed to accommodate such automatic switching of the sample rate with hardware / drivers which are capable of doing so.

I would have thought Niek could get the same result with his RME HDSPe MadiFace, but things may be different on a Mac. Niek, if you are listening, you could also perhaps verify that you are using the latest drivers for your interfaces and that the interface is indeed selected in Wavelab's VST Audio Connections.
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Re: Newbie question: several sample rates in 1 project?

Post by Arjan P » Tue Aug 26, 2014 8:31 pm

I was merely adding precision to your remark, since a wrong suggestion is easily made - and some other software does do such things behind ones back..
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Re: Newbie question: several sample rates in 1 project?

Post by stingray » Mon Sep 01, 2014 12:18 pm

Niek, if you're still listening, check this:
http://www.steinberg.net/forums/viewtop ... 89&t=63734

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Re: Newbie question: several sample rates in 1 project?

Post by Niekbeem » Mon Sep 01, 2014 2:16 pm

Thanks for the link stingray,
I solved my problem by inserting the "Chrystal Resampler" in one of the the Master Section's effects slots, and I set its sample frequency to 48KHz, and now I can play 44.1KHz files in the Audio File Workspace without issues while my system runs @ 48KHz.......

Thanks again!
Niek / Amsterdam
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Re: Newbie question: several sample rates in 1 project?

Post by PG » Mon Sep 01, 2014 2:42 pm

Be aware that the Crystal Resampler is a CPU consuming plugin.
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Re: Newbie question: several sample rates in 1 project?

Post by Niekbeem » Mon Sep 01, 2014 2:48 pm

Thanks PG, but since there is no other way to play different files files with different sample frequencies, I'm "forced" to use the Crystal Resampler, don't I?

How do programs like "Snapper" do that trick?
My copy of "Snapper" plays any kind of file with and kind of sample frequency even when they do not match my systems' sample freq.......

Any suggestions welcome!

(BTW; I used a trial version of WL up tot today, but this morning I ordered a copy with a license :D )

Thanks!
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Re: Newbie question: several sample rates in 1 project?

Post by Daved » Mon Sep 01, 2014 6:10 pm

PG - on a mac laptop with a 2.2G i7 Crystal runs great in real time, even set to ultra with a full compliment of mastering plugs. Yeah, I can always throw a straw that breaks this camel's back, but even then I can work at "high". Considering it's sound quality at Ultra (and modern workflows, like MfiT), alongside the high res sources we're increasingly seeing this is a very good thing.

As good as it is, my one wish for Wavelab 9 (or iZotope RX 5) would be for an even better sounding real time plug-based SRC to replace Crystal. Crystal's sonically a tiny bit less pure and clean than iZotope RX' src, which is always available, but not as elegant to use as Crystal. I really really really love this workflow. But, sonically the quality must be on par with Weiss and RX given how frequently it's needed.

To be clearer, going from 88.2 to 44.1 or 96 to 48, Crystal's as good as anything. The difference is mostly heard in 48>44.1 (so it's possibly not be a "flaw" or problem, just the loss of in-band info being reproduced in my room). Difference files reveal specifics here, and are tedious but easy to compare.
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Re: Newbie question: several sample rates in 1 project?

Post by bob99 » Mon Sep 01, 2014 10:36 pm

Niekbeem wrote: How do programs like "Snapper" do that trick?
My copy of "Snapper" plays any kind of file with and kind of sample frequency even when they do not match my systems' sample freq.......
If the interface isn't switching the ref clock, it's probably the same way iTunes can play multiple sample rates in the same playlist (?). Maybe realtime SRC behind your back? I've found iTunes can play 192KHz 64 bit float WAV files in the same playlist as 44.1KHz 16 bit WAV files.
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Re: Newbie question: several sample rates in 1 project?

Post by Niekbeem » Mon Sep 01, 2014 10:45 pm

I think you're right, and I really hope real-time SRC is gone be implemented with a next version of WL?!

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Re: Newbie question: several sample rates in 1 project?

Post by Arjan P » Mon Sep 01, 2014 11:10 pm

Niekbeem wrote:I really hope real-time SRC is gone be implemented with a next version of WL?!
Having used WL since v.3, I'm pretty sure that won't happen. Wavelab never does anything 'automatically' behind your back, and it should stay that way. I want to be in control of what kind of sample rate conversion is taking place - and at what quality. This is also what makes WL so flexible and adaptable to the individual user.
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Re: Newbie question: several sample rates in 1 project?

Post by bob99 » Tue Sep 02, 2014 12:38 am

Agree with Arjan. If you use the Crystal plugin in realtime at least you know it's there.
But as stingray has said you really should be able to do this better with your interface setup rather than with the SRC plugin. I don't think we know which interface you're using in Wavelab or Snapper. In the Wavelab audio interface prefs is the selection RME ASIO or MetricHalo ASIO? And if you pull up the RME or MetricHalo control panel are they set for internal clock? You say your system is at 48k but where is it "locked" at 48k that Wavelab can't play a 44.1 at 44.1 and a 48 at 48? I can do that with my RME if it's set for internal clock. You might want to open your RME or MetricHalo control panels when you're trying to play 44.1 and 48 from Wavelab and see what they're doing, whether the indicated sample rate is changing, and look through the control panel menus for other clues as to why it's not switching. Is the interface hard locked at 48 somewhere?
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Re: Newbie question: several sample rates in 1 project?

Post by Niekbeem » Tue Sep 02, 2014 4:55 am

I prefer using the Crystal plugin rather than changing the sample freq of my system. Of course I can change the sample freq's of my hardware (RME om my mobile rig, MetricHalo on my studio-rig) but my entire "studio" is locked to a central 48KHz-clock.
In order to preview a client's 44.1KHz file in Wavelab I think it's not a brilliant (crystal?) idea to change my entire studio to 44.1KHz......I agree on that putting a SRC like the Crystal in the monitoring-chain is a very deliberate working method, certainly if you take into account that -in terms of mastering- one wants to keep an eye on "what's happening behind your back".......

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Re: Newbie question: several sample rates in 1 project?

Post by Daved » Tue Sep 02, 2014 3:38 pm

I'm with the crowd: I never want automagic unbidden processing going on in any Montage or file space. I'd rather it sound wrong, until I make it sound right! ;)

That said, I STRONGLY request an architectural change to support multiple sample rates on multi-core machines via the Montage. If you could let us drop/run Crystal in the "Tracks" section, we could segregate files at different sample rates by track - all 96K on one track, 48K on another, 44.1 on another and so on, until you're out of DSP. Obviously multiple instances of "master" effects like Crystal and Limiter will devour cpu and limit it's benefit for most users. But the shift would give WL 9 a competitive feature others lack, and current users would clearly appreciate.
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Re: Newbie question: several sample rates in 1 project?

Post by PG » Tue Sep 02, 2014 4:24 pm

Why spending CPU all the time, while SRC can be done once and cached? (what WaveLab already does).
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Re: Newbie question: several sample rates in 1 project?

Post by bob99 » Tue Sep 02, 2014 6:51 pm

I'd welcome Daved's suggestion, to enable the plugin elsewhere.

Sorry, but I'm still a little confused about the video mentioned in Niek's first post. Does anyone have a link to that video? I couldn't find anything about sample rate at 3:00 in the Steinberg Youtube video of similar name:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IYgiqFdI08&index=2
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Re: Newbie question: several sample rates in 1 project?

Post by bob99 » Tue Sep 02, 2014 8:01 pm

PG wrote:Why spending CPU all the time, while SRC can be done once and cached? (what WaveLab already does).
But isn't that what iTunes (and other media players) are doing when playing a 384KHz WAV file through notebook speakers? Realtime digital SRC to get it down to a sampling rate the hardware can play?

To take Niek's point, maybe monitor (only) should allow any file. Maybe all programs will do that in 5 years.

Seems there's so much SRC going on behind our backs anyway (Digital SRC upsampling in every D to A converter for every playback. Digital SRC downsampling in every A to D converter for every recording). Does anybody worry or think about those conversions?
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