[POLL]Being able to move instruments in the rack

General discussions on songwriting, mixing, music business and other music related topics.

Would you like to be able to move instruments in the instruments panel?

I would like this as a new feature
38
72%
I would not like this as a new feature
15
28%
 
Total votes: 53

chrisyking
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[POLL]Being able to move instruments in the rack

Post by chrisyking » Mon Apr 04, 2011 11:44 pm

Hi who would like to be able to move instruments around the instruments panel, so you can organise them into groups or whatever. Basically you'd be able to click and drag an instrument and move it to a different position (similar to how you can move insert effects now). :?:
Last edited by chrisyking on Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: [POLL]Being able to move instruments in the rack

Post by TwinOak » Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:23 am

A poll for the indecisive? :D
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Re: [POLL]Being able to move instruments in the rack

Post by chrisyking » Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:52 pm

Sorry I've not set up a poll before. Thought it would be a nice feature though if you use the instrument rack a lot like i do.???

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Re: [POLL]Being able to move instruments in the rack

Post by Weasel » Tue Apr 05, 2011 6:21 pm

A poll for the indecisive?
When I read the title of this post, it happened to coincide with a problem I recently encountered with a client.
I was given a series of older SX3-created Projects, where the client had originally loaded in about 30 different plugins into the rack. Apparently, this was his "template" back then. He only used 4-5 of them and the rest were shut off.

After I removed all the unused ones, what remained was scattered up and down the list. So I'm thinking: wouldn't it be nice if I could drag them all to the top of the list. Then I read this post and voted yes, because, in some instances, the suggestion has merit.
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Re: [POLL]Being able to move instruments in the rack

Post by Sonik » Tue Apr 05, 2011 6:55 pm

And why not having presets for the rack, too?
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Re: [POLL]Being able to move instruments in the rack

Post by NYC Composer » Tue Apr 05, 2011 10:20 pm

I've always wanted this.
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Re: [POLL]Being able to move instruments in the rack

Post by L.F. » Tue Apr 05, 2011 11:12 pm

-1

You still use the VST rack? :?
Maybe try instrument tracks, and use vst rack only for multitimbral vsti's?
Or is there any other valid reason (besides being old school) why anyone would use vst rack over instrument tracks?
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Re: [POLL]Being able to move instruments in the rack

Post by Como Baila » Wed Apr 06, 2011 7:56 am

@L.F.

Besides primarily using multitimbral instruments ... I like to group and subgroup my midi tracks and instruments in the project window separately in order to simplify the project window and arrange the order of midi tracks and instruments in the mixer to my liking.

I pretty much never use instrument tracks.

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Re: [POLL]Being able to move instruments in the rack

Post by chrisyking » Wed Apr 06, 2011 9:53 am

Bump

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Re: [POLL]Being able to move instruments in the rack

Post by LarsErik » Wed Apr 06, 2011 10:19 am

I prefer the VST rack and using separate MIDI tracks any day of the week. IMHO instrument tracks feels like a "garage band"-feature with a lot of shortcomings.
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Re: [POLL]Being able to move instruments in the rack

Post by L.F. » Wed Apr 06, 2011 10:34 am

Como Baila wrote:@L.F.

Besides primarily using multitimbral instruments ... I like to group and subgroup my midi tracks and instruments in the project window separately in order to simplify the project window and arrange the order of midi tracks and instruments in the mixer to my liking.

I pretty much never use instrument tracks.

Como
So what you're saying is that you mostly use multitimbral instruments, and use so much of them to fill up the vst rack and find it hard to navigate through it?
I've got a 22" monitor and can fit around 40 plugins in the vst rack per screen. So if 90% of multitimbral VST's use 8/16 parts (let's say 8) you'd be using at least 320 parts before having to even scroll the vst rack. this is overkill even for most orchestral music.
LarsErik wrote:I prefer the VST rack and using separate MIDI tracks any day of the week. IMHO instrument tracks feels like a "garage band"-feature with a lot of shortcomings.
What shortcomings? Enlighten me.

I'm hearing a lot of old school, stuck in it's ways talk, but still not hearing any actual advantage to using vst rack (besides multitimbral instr. which will never fill much of the vst rack). Instrument tracks, on the other hand, have plenty of advantages:
1. possibility of replacing the VST without replacing the effects chain,
2. direct control to the midi, mixer, effects from a single channel, instead of having to jump from midi to mixer, searching for the audio output.
3. possibility of saving entire instruments combined with effects with a single click and browsing/loading them later with preview.
4. Being able to re-arrange them, group/hide them, etc.


P.S. I'm not against adding this feature per se, but IMO there are a lot of more pressing changes needed, and upgrading a feature that is slowly being replaced seems pointless.
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Re: [POLL]Being able to move instruments in the rack

Post by TabSel » Wed Apr 06, 2011 11:22 am

disadvantages of instrument tracks

1) unable to send MIDI to the VSTi on a MIDI channel > #1
2) unable to receive audio from the VSTi on stereo audio out > #1
3) unable to receive MIDI from VSTi
4) uable to route multiple MIDI events to the same VSTi

we all work different, and both methods of plugin in VSTis have their advantages and disadvantages.

I voted "yes" but, instead, I'd rather have a solution for the disadvantages of both methods:

1) MIDI channel of MIDI send to the instrument track VSTi like the MIDI channel selector in MIDI track
2) availability of ANY instrument tracks VSTi audio outputs as audio input to the instrument track itself and to any audio track Input as well
3) availability of an instrument tracks VSTi midi output to any midi track input
4) availability to route MIDI of a midi track to any instrument tracks VSTi midi input

5) media bay preset handling (".rackreset") for one or multiple VSTi rack slot(s), containing plugin, plugin settings, VST audio output setup and all mixer channels for the VSTi and busses any mixer channel is routed/send to for this setup including mixer channel settings like inserts, eqs

plus the ability to store .rackpresets along with a miditrack .trackpreset of a midi track routed to a rack VSTi, and the ability to extract the .rackpreset from the trackpreset etc...

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Re: [POLL]Being able to move instruments in the rack

Post by L.F. » Wed Apr 06, 2011 11:46 am

TabSel wrote:disadvantages of instrument tracks

1) unable to send MIDI to the VSTi on a MIDI channel > #1
2) unable to receive audio from the VSTi on stereo audio out > #1
3) unable to receive MIDI from VSTi
4) uable to route multiple MIDI events to the same VSTi

we all work different, and both methods of plugin in VSTis have their advantages and disadvantages.

I voted "yes" but, instead, I'd rather have a solution for the disadvantages of both methods:

1) MIDI channel of MIDI send to the instrument track VSTi like the MIDI channel selector in MIDI track
2) availability of ANY instrument tracks VSTi audio outputs as audio input to the instrument track itself and to any audio track Input as well
3) availability of an instrument tracks VSTi midi output to any midi track input
4) availability to route MIDI of a midi track to any instrument tracks VSTi midi input

5) media bay preset handling (".rackreset") for one or multiple VSTi rack slot(s), containing plugin, plugin settings, VST audio output setup and all mixer channels for the VSTi and busses any mixer channel is routed/send to for this setup including mixer channel settings like inserts, eqs

plus the ability to store .rackpresets along with a miditrack .trackpreset of a midi track routed to a rack VSTi, and the ability to extract the .rackpreset from the trackpreset etc...
Thank you for the explanation. I stand corrected.
However, this could all be summed up to instrument tracks not receiving/sending midi. Also, since we're talking about ways to enhance instr. tracks, I'd like to ad the obvious one; making them support multitimbral instruments (similar to a folder track; having the multitimbral instr. track open up to reveal the XX separate channels, for example). Rack presets are a good idea, but it wouldn't be much of a time-saver without loading the connected midi channels/audio channel effects. So it would be only a semi-solution IMO.

In the end, both have advantages, depending on the way of working, but I've found from experience that many cubase users avoid instr. tracks for no real reason other than habit and, sometimes, ignorance. Hence the reason to, one again, point out the advantages they offer, hoping more will try them out and learn the benefits for themselves. Steinberg gave us instr. tracks not to simplify cubase for newcommers, but to make working with vsti's faster and more intuitive. And IMO they succeeded for the most part.
Still, they're not perfect, but if SB continues to work on them, they could soon be better than the vst rack in most scenarios.
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Re: [POLL]Being able to move instruments in the rack

Post by TabSel » Wed Apr 06, 2011 1:09 pm

L.F. wrote:...However, this could all be summed up to instrument tracks not receiving/sending midi...
not quite. A instrument track can only send MIDI ch#1 and only receive stereo audio ch#1.
L.F. wrote:...talking about ways to enhance instr. tracks, I'd like to ad the obvious one; making them support multitimbral instruments (similar to a folder track; having the multitimbral instr. track open up to reveal the XX separate channels, for example)...
but then again, you would be limited to ONE track sending MIDI to the VSTi. What about a VSTi that play violas in the higher key range and celli in the lower key range, ON THE SAME MIDI ch#, as en example?
I'd want at least TWO MIDI tracks, routed the same VSTi on the same MIDI ch#.

I'd suggest to consider a VSTi in an instrument track as if it was inserted into a VSTi rack" slot, and behave like an ordinary VSTi instrument track does now: being a MIDI track without a mixer channel, sending MIDI on an adjustable ch# to the VSTi and being an audio track with a mixer channel, receiving any VSTi audio out and route it through its mixer channel.

- allow creation of instrument tracks using the same VSTi instance already instantiated in another instrument track

- Make that VSTi's MIDI and audio i/o available to ordinary MIDI/audio track i/o.
L.F. wrote:...Rack presets are a good idea, but it wouldn't be much of a time-saver without loading the connected midi channels/audio channel effects. So it would be only a semi-solution IMO.
as I said, a .rackpreset has to include the plugin settings and the enabled VSTi outputs, thus, the corresponding mixer channels (audio tracks, if you like) and their settings. A .rackpreset could also include MIDI .trackpresets of MIDI tracks routed to that VSTi rack slot. You should be able to extract the .trackpresets from .rackpresets etc.

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Re: [POLL]Being able to move instruments in the rack

Post by L.F. » Wed Apr 06, 2011 1:59 pm

TabSel wrote:
L.F. wrote:...However, this could all be summed up to instrument tracks not receiving/sending midi...
not quite. A instrument track can only send MIDI ch#1 and only receive stereo audio ch#1.
As I've mentioned in a previous post, it is common knowledge Instr. tracks are for monotimbral instruments only. And nobody was suggesting to use them for anything except single output VSTi. Hence the limitations you're mentioning do not apply unless you expect them to work with multitibral instruments. 99% of VSTi's out there need only 1 midi input on a single midi channel and a single stereo output. Exactly what intr. tracks have, making them ideal for most plugins on the market. And making vst rack essential only for the remaining 1%:
multitimbral and 5.1 instruments.
L.F. wrote:...talking about ways to enhance instr. tracks, I'd like to ad the obvious one; making them support multitimbral instruments (similar to a folder track; having the multitimbral instr. track open up to reveal the XX separate channels, for example)...
but then again, you would be limited to ONE track sending MIDI to the VSTi. What about a VSTi that play violas in the higher key range and celli in the lower key range, ON THE SAME MIDI ch#, as en example?
I'd want at least TWO MIDI tracks, routed the same VSTi on the same MIDI ch#.
Again, if SB were to make instr. tracks multitimbral, they would, obviously, have multiple midi channels and audio outputs contained within it. My suggestion was for a kind of a "unified" track which, when expanded, had all the midi channels available within itself. Similar to using a folder track for storing midi channels now, but instead, a folder being the multitimbral VSTi.


I'd suggest to consider a VSTi in an instrument track as if it was inserted into a VSTi rack" slot, and behave like an ordinary VSTi instrument track does now: being a MIDI track without a mixer channel, sending MIDI on an adjustable ch# to the VSTi and being an audio track with a mixer channel, receiving any VSTi audio out and route it through its mixer channel.
I disagree on making the instr. track a glorified midi channel, as that is what a midi channel is for. The fact instr. tracks make a stereo output on creation is exactly what makes them better; one can ad XX number of instr. track and preload some basic effects (comp/EQ for example), route them to a group as save this as a template for quick access later. Also, and this is key, without that mixer channel, replacing the VSTi "on the fly", a feature only instr. channels have, would not work.
- allow creation of instrument tracks using the same VSTi instance already instantiated in another instrument track

- Make that VSTi's MIDI and audio i/o available to ordinary MIDI/audio track i/o.
That would be covered by enabling instr. tracks to send/receive midi/audio input.
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Re: [POLL]Being able to move instruments in the rack

Post by TabSel » Wed Apr 06, 2011 3:23 pm

guess you're right and I'm one of these ignorant people who simply can't use instrument tracks for way more than 1% of his monotimbral plugs.

however...

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Re: [POLL]Being able to move instruments in the rack

Post by chase » Wed Apr 06, 2011 3:26 pm

L.F. wrote:99% of VSTi's out there need only 1 midi input on a single midi channel and a single stereo output.
Do you mean that literally? Or just that many are that way?

Either way, most of the VIs I use are multitimbral, so, to me, it doesn't matter how many VIs aren't.

And, does a high proportion of available mono-timbral instruments imply that there's a high proportion of Cubase users who don't use multi-timbral instruments? Doesn't seem at all like an obvious conclusion, to me (though I'm not saying it can't be true).

Also, amongst the several ways of dealing with different articulations in sample libraries, one method involves using a different MIDI channel per articulation. So that means several MIDI channels for just one instrument. (Not the way I prefer, but I did that once with solo violin in HSO - load the wanted articulations into the player, with different MIDI channels, initialise all MIDI notes with the MIDI channel corresponding to the most commonly required articulation, and then where particular notes are to be played with a different articulations, change their MIDI channel.)

Because I mainly use multi-timbral instruments, I haven't bothered with instrument channels - just 'cause it's easier when eveything's the same. If there were multi-timbral instrument channels, I'd give them a try, though I'd be cautious about a wholesale changeover.

And I do hope there's never a version of Cubase that won't accommodate existing cpr files that have VIs in the rack - though perhaps it would be sufficient if Cubase was able to translate a MIDI-with-VST-rack track into a "new improved" instrument track (on importing an old cpr file).

Meanwhile, I would like to be able to move the instruments in the rack - have wanted that ever since I started using the rack.

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Re: [POLL]Being able to move instruments in the rack

Post by L.F. » Wed Apr 06, 2011 5:18 pm

chase wrote:
L.F. wrote:99% of VSTi's out there need only 1 midi input on a single midi channel and a single stereo output.
Do you mean that literally? Or just that many are that way?
As a matter of fact, I'm pretty sure 99% is not far off. It's simple really; most vsti plugins are freeware, of those most are VA synths. And almost all of them are monotimbral. It's an educated guess, based on 12 years of using/testing tons of VSTi's, but whoever wants exact numbers visit k-v-r, list all the instruments (around 2000+ are listed ATM) and check.
And, does a high proportion of available mono-timbral instruments imply that there's a high proportion of Cubase users who don't use multi-timbral instruments? Doesn't seem at all like an obvious conclusion, to me (though I'm not saying it can't be true).
I think you misunderstood my posts. I'd say pretty much all of us use at least one multitimbral VSTi (Battery/kontakt/omnisphere, etc.), except those who work with audio only. That's not the point.
My point is that most users will not load 40 instances of kontakt, each with 16 channels, unless they're slightly insane :roll:
So the only way to pile enough VSTi into the vst rack, and hence need the option to re-arrange them, is if the user loads an additional 30+ "classic" VSTi's. And it is these stereo, monotimbral VST'i that are perfect for the instrument tracks. There are no disadvantages for using stereo monotimbral VSTi in the instrument tracks. Only advantages. And yes, there will always be the odd, 1 in a 1000 plugin who will be the exception to the rule, but that is irrelevant. If odd plugiuns and ways of working were reasons for updates, then cubase would have billions of features by now.
Point is: if your vst rack is filled with dozens of VSTi's, it's your choice, but there is a better way, and one SB gave us for a reason. ;)
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Re: [POLL]Being able to move instruments in the rack

Post by Guest » Wed Apr 06, 2011 9:05 pm

L.F. wrote:-1

You still use the VST rack? :?
There's always one, isn't there? :roll:

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Re: [POLL]Being able to move instruments in the rack

Post by L.F. » Wed Apr 06, 2011 10:33 pm

FunkyDrummer wrote:
L.F. wrote:-1

You still use the VST rack? :?
There's always one, isn't there? :roll:
No. I gave up and changed my vote for the sake of those who feel they need this feature. Go vst rack! :ugeek:

P.S. I still stand by my original point, just realized I'm wasting my time. So I say: To each his own. And I hope SB adds this feature for you.
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Re: [POLL]Being able to move instruments in the rack

Post by NYC Composer » Thu Apr 07, 2011 8:30 am

I'm not sure where you got this idea that 'most VSTis are mono-timbral'. Wow. A partial list of my stuff:

VE Pro, Kontakt, Omnisphere, Halion, about 10 EW Play instruments including EWQLSO, Battery, Stylus, Trilian, etc etc--getting the picture?

I think you might be mainly talking to hobbyists or specific genre producers, such as electronica or dance producers-and even there, things like Reason are multi-timbral. I think the only instruments I use that aren't multi-timbral are in Komplete 6 (Massive, Reaktor, B4, etc.)

I will say one thing-anecdotal evidence has suggested to me that multiple core distribution works more efficiently with one instance (say, of Kontakt) per sound, which forces cores to cycle-but that's another kettle of fish.
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Re: [POLL]Being able to move instruments in the rack

Post by L.F. » Thu Apr 07, 2011 11:15 am

NYC Composer wrote:I'm not sure where you got this idea that 'most VSTis are mono-timbral'. Wow. A partial list of my stuff:

VE Pro, Kontakt, Omnisphere, Halion, about 10 EW Play instruments including EWQLSO, Battery, Stylus, Trilian, etc etc--getting the picture?

I think you might be mainly talking to hobbyists or specific genre producers, such as electronica or dance producers-and even there, things like Reason are multi-timbral. I think the only instruments I use that aren't multi-timbral are in Komplete 6 (Massive, Reaktor, B4, etc.)
Are you serious? Calling Reason, a standalone program with no VST support whatsoever, a multitimbral plugin, goes to show how informed you are on the matter. I find it a little sad that those are the only plugins you're aware of, assuming you're an experienced producer. But regardless, those plugins are only a drop in the sea.
And there are no "hobbyist" VST plugins. Freeware/shareware plugins, like commercial plugins, are used by everyone; from amateurs to producers of the highest caliber; and there are some amazing VST gems out there.
So please.. before trying to lecture me, get your facts straight.
I will say one thing-anecdotal evidence has suggested to me that multiple core distribution works more efficiently with one instance (say, of Kontakt) per sound, which forces cores to cycle-but that's another kettle of fish.
Kontakt has multi-core support within the plugin itself, so it cycles cores regardless of cubase multi-core handling.
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chase
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Re: [POLL]Being able to move instruments in the rack

Post by chase » Thu Apr 07, 2011 12:34 pm

L.F. wrote:a better way, and one SB gave us for a reason. ;)
Sadly, the fact that SB has its reasons when it changes CB doesn't carry as much weight as it ideally would, because some of the changes are so mystifying that the reasons are hard to fathom. :(

But, I agree it looks like the introduction of instrument tracks did make sense. :)

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L.F.
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Re: [POLL]Being able to move instruments in the rack

Post by L.F. » Thu Apr 07, 2011 1:55 pm

chase wrote:
L.F. wrote:a better way, and one SB gave us for a reason. ;)
Sadly, the fact that SB has its reasons when it changes CB doesn't carry as much weight as it ideally would, because some of the changes are so mystifying that the reasons are hard to fathom. :(
Agreed. Listening to their users is not something SB do often. And it's this reason alone why some of the biggest new features since v3 to v6, media/sound/loop bay and instr. tracks, are still nowhere near as good as they could be. Both of these features have the potential to be amazing IMO, but neither is anywhere near finished.
But, I agree it looks like the introduction of instrument tracks did make sense. :)
They may not be for every occasion and/or everyone, but it can be a great tool, and one I love and use daily. Hence the reason I try to point out it's advantages, even to those hell bent on avoiding new features ;)
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Re: [POLL]Being able to move instruments in the rack

Post by beerbong » Thu Apr 07, 2011 7:39 pm

/signed
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