Midi Notes early (or audio is played early)

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Midi Notes early (or audio is played early)

Post by agienne » Thu Feb 12, 2015 11:19 pm

Midi Notes arriving early, or I'm hearing all audio early.

Hello, all. When recording midi, the notes are placed earlier than played.
I've had this problem in Cubase 7. I hoped the jump to Cubase 8 would fix it, but it remains. I've looked extensively online, but most forums trail off being unsolved, or people just recommend turning on System Timestamp. (Which had no effect). But I do arrive here having done tests.

Test
1. Add a midi track pointed at Halion (sound with a sharp attack)
2. Add a group track
3. Change Halion output to group 1
4. Add an audio track with “Group 1” as its input.
5. Enable both tracks and record. Match the metronomes click.

Zooming in to both the waveform and midi notes, the midi is placed early. When played back, the midi will be slightly ahead of the metronome. The audio file is placed correctly as played.
Also, just to prove that the tracks don't agree. With that same setup, if the audio track is monitored, there will be a slight phasing (as expected, hearing the notes doubled) while recording. But playback (monitoring disabled) changes that phasing into a hard flam.
A rendering of the midi track, will put the audio in the exact incorrect spot. Also, A re-rerecording of the group track (with the incorrectly timed midi) will create audio in the incorrect spot.

Could I be hearing ALL audio earlier than Cubase thinks I am? When recording audio, I need to adjust for Record Latency (about -700 samples) for accurate timing from an external analogue source. The above test were performed with and without that enabled, but made no difference. If there's a comparable adjustment for midi, PLEASE point me towards it.

I've tried resetting the midi port filters, testing with and without Constrain Delay Compensation, moving the “Ignore port filter”, and ticking the ASIO Latency Compensation box. None of these had any effect.


I've been battling this for a great deal of time, ANY help, or anything you think I should try, would be appreciated. While the incorrect timing may be slight, it builds and builds while playing to a previous track. This also occurs when playing to a quantized part or loop, not just the metronome.



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Re: Midi Notes early (or audio is played early)

Post by Elien » Fri Feb 13, 2015 12:10 pm

Hi, I see from your spec that you are working with a Yamaha Motif XS. If your issues are in conjunction with the VST-Editor Version, this is a known issue and yamaha/Steinberg are working on it!

There are tips for Workarounds in this Forum (which lead to not using the vst, but the stand alone Editor Version).

Cheers, Ernst
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Re: Midi Notes early (or audio is played early)

Post by agienne » Fri Feb 13, 2015 7:29 pm

Yep, aware of that. Thanks, though! I'm just using the Yamaha midi input. Also, I've hooked it up as an External Instrument. Same results.
It was apparent in Cubase 7, also. I've just now decided I've had enough of manually dragging the notes to the approximate location.
I figured that my setup is all "Team Steinberg", there shouldn't be any issue.

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Re: Midi Notes early (or audio is played early)

Post by agienne » Tue Feb 17, 2015 3:39 am

Hello All. I'm not going to let this one die! I would be VERY thankful if someone could repeat these steps, or explain how my logic is incorrect.

Test
1. Add a midi track pointed at Halion (sound with a sharp attack)
2. Add a group track
3. Change Halion output to group 1
4. Add 2 audio tracks with “Group 1” as its input.
5. Enable both the midi and one of the group tracks and record. Match the metronomes click.
For me. The Live Audio is placed perfectly.
6. Enable the 2nd Group track and record the audio from the recorded midi.

It's very slight, but doesn't match for me. If it was some sort of delay in the soft synth, I would assume it would be recreated on the second pass. It leads me to conclude that the problem is Cubase incorrectly placing where the midi is recorded.
Image

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Re: Midi Notes early (or audio is played early)

Post by Elien » Tue Feb 17, 2015 2:26 pm

Hi - are you sure?

Your Picture - if I get it right - Shows to me that the live Audio is LATE and the recorded one is perfectly ok.
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Re: Midi Notes early (or audio is played early)

Post by agienne » Tue Feb 17, 2015 11:51 pm

Half right. When recording, the "Group Recorded Live" track is exactly where I played it. The Midi is placed slightly ahead. The 2nd pass, recording the midi, puts it in the exact spot of the midi, unfortunately that's the wrong spot.

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Re: Midi Notes early (or audio is played early)

Post by beerbong » Wed Feb 18, 2015 12:05 am

i fully understand the issue at hand. we have debated the issue endlessly since cubase 5, at least.

all manner of tests performed and all report inconsistancies when scrutinized closely.

many report none but likely are getting them but just dont know, or they are small enough to be irrelevant for the job at hand.

anywhere between 2 to 40 ms variation, although the variation tends to be variable but still somewhat random.

many have given up long ago or switched to other daw which dont show this errors on the exact same system.
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Re: Midi Notes early (or audio is played early)

Post by DiegoMax » Tue May 19, 2015 5:50 pm

This is a well known issue that Steinberg is refusing to fix, i have posted a video that clearly shows the problem here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2HXNQP2iwE

I guess that after waiting for 4 major releases for this issue to be fixed, its time to switch to a different DAW.

One thing is for sure, Cubase is the ONLY daw in the market with this kind of tremendous bug being ignored for more than 6 versions.
Just a simple google search, or even a search on this forum will show you that the problem exists since at least SX.
// Diego

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Re: Midi Notes early (or audio is played early)

Post by djw » Wed May 20, 2015 4:35 pm

It would be better to post this in Issue Reports:

http://www.steinberg.net/forums/viewforum.php?f=230

Make sure to read the guideline for posting there.




This is what I end up with when I replicate your steps:

Image


EDIT: It's directly related to the buffer size set in the ASIO driver.

Image

Tested with both ASIO4ALL and Generic ASIO Driver. (Don't have access to my C1 right now)
Last edited by djw on Wed May 20, 2015 5:26 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Midi Notes early (or audio is played early)

Post by peakae » Wed May 20, 2015 4:52 pm

I don't have this issue, not that it matters. But if "they" are not able to reproduce it there is not going to be any fix. Years ago I have had a similar problem, that turned out to be the audio driver reporting the wrong latency, a driver update took care of that.
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Re: Midi Notes early (or audio is played early)

Post by NYFC » Wed May 20, 2015 7:39 pm

I had been feeling uneasy about midi timing and decided to check its reliability. I have the early midi problem as it turns out. I recorded quarter notes and quantized them 100% and ran that track into another midi track via an iac bus. Sure enough, everything was recorded early in the second track. How much early was dependent on buffer size.
I did the same test in Digital Performer 8 and Logic X. DP was not early, but Logic was, so the plot thickens.

Steinberg- let me know it you would like me to send you the projects to verify. This seems to be an issue worth resolving.
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Re: Midi Notes early (or audio is played early)

Post by djw » Thu May 21, 2015 5:51 pm

peakae wrote:I don't have this issue, not that it matters. But if "they" are not able to reproduce it there is not going to be any fix. Years ago I have had a similar problem, that turned out to be the audio driver reporting the wrong latency, a driver update took care of that.
I wonder if this really is setup dependent like you say, because I reproduced it with two different drivers.

Could you please go through the reproduction steps and screenshot the result? (High buffer size like 2048 samples is preferable to clearly show the impact.)

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Re: Midi Notes early (or audio is played early)

Post by djw » Mon May 25, 2015 1:01 pm

Should I post this as a bug/issue report? There are clear reproduction steps.

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Re: Midi Notes early (or audio is played early)

Post by NYFC » Mon May 25, 2015 5:08 pm

djw wrote:Should I post this as a bug/issue report? There are clear reproduction steps.
Probably a good idea, but I can't imagine they aren't aware of the issue. For the time being it bothers me enough that I'm using another DAW for midi, which is a shame because nothing compares with C8's midi features.
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Re: Midi Notes early (or audio is played early)

Post by peakae » Tue May 26, 2015 2:04 pm

Just got the time to test it, and sorry can not reproduce the timing issues. But a few questions just to be clear. Are there any plugin fx on the group track or audio track, and what happens if you instead of the group track use a dummy Bus. (A output Bus that is not connected in the VST connections, and used as input for the audio track). Is auto Quantize on ?
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Re: Midi Notes early (or audio is played early)

Post by djw » Tue Jun 02, 2015 4:52 pm

Easiest reproduction:
1. Set the cursor to bar 2
2. Turn on precount
3. Record a note on the first tick
-> You will see that it has placed the note before the cursor.

Image

(Buffer sizes of 64 and 2048 samples.)

Tested on two systems using ASIO4ALL v2, Generic Low Latency Audio Driver or Yamaha Steinberg USB ASIO driver, with ASIOGuard and Mult-Processing on or off.

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Re: Midi Notes early (or audio is played early)

Post by NYFC » Tue Jun 02, 2015 6:49 pm

djw wrote:Easiest reproduction:
1. Set the cursor to bar 2
2. Turn on precount
3. Record a note on the first tick
-> You will see that it has placed the note before the cursor.

Image

(Buffer sizes of 64 and 2048 samples.)

Tested on two systems using ASIO4ALL v2, Generic Low Latency Audio Driver or Yamaha Steinberg USB ASIO driver, with ASIOGuard and Mult-Processing on or off.
I get similar results on my system. This is a BIG DEAL and really needs to be fixed. Please!!! I'm using an Apollo Quad BTW.
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Re: Midi Notes early (or audio is played early)

Post by theRoyal1 » Wed Jun 03, 2015 10:33 am

Post your audio card settings with these.
ASIO Guard, buffer, Multiprocessing, Adjust for buffer size...etc.

:geek:
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Re: Midi Notes early (or audio is played early)

Post by NYFC » Wed Jun 03, 2015 1:35 pm

theRoyal1 wrote:Post your audio card settings with these.
ASIO Guard, buffer, Multiprocessing, Adjust for buffer size...etc.

:geek:
I've tried every combination of settings I can think of. Different buffer sizes, multi processing on and off, ASIO guard on and off, different audio interface drivers- it's all early. Frustrating!
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Re: Midi Notes early (or audio is played early)

Post by theRoyal1 » Wed Jun 03, 2015 3:28 pm

NYFC wrote:
theRoyal1 wrote:Post your audio card settings with these.
ASIO Guard, buffer, Multiprocessing, Adjust for buffer size...etc.

:geek:
I've tried every combination of settings I can think of. Different buffer sizes, multi processing on and off, ASIO guard on and off, different audio interface drivers- it's all early. Frustrating!
I can imagine... I have the same issue with MIDI and trying to solve it...

It almost seems as Cubase is becoming super clumsy. Seems like they break something, fix it and break something else then fix it and the 1st break comes back...lol
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Re: Midi Notes early (or audio is played early)

Post by nucube » Wed Jun 03, 2015 8:26 pm

Yikes!This is worrying.I will check mine and post back.

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Re: Midi Notes early (or audio is played early)

Post by h3kt0 » Thu Jun 04, 2015 12:42 am

Same VERY ANNOYING problem here for audio only (for some reason the MIDI issue has gone).

Running 8.0.10, Windows 7 64 Ultimate and RME Fireface, 256 buffer, ASIO Guard set on HIGH.

Worst thing about this is when I manually move an audio clip to the right position it stays "in advance" when I duplicate the same clip again, this is even more f*cked up knowing that I snap/trimmed the beginning/end where they should be.

STEINBERG PLEASE FIX.
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Re: Midi Notes early (or audio is played early)

Post by Maximus Devisser » Thu Jun 04, 2015 1:24 am

I had the same problem with midi notes being played too early. Could not fix the issue no matter what. So I made some custom metronome samples with a slight delay to them. Fixed my early note problem lol 8-)

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Re: Midi Notes early (or audio is played early)

Post by NYFC » Thu Jun 04, 2015 2:42 pm

The number of ticks the midi is early is tempo dependent, so this negates the possibility of a workaround of using a logical editor to move notes to their proper position. Moving by milliseconds can get closer, but, again, tempo changes make this method an inaccurate one.

I'm taking Steinberg's silence on this matter as a sign that they might be looking into it and are probably concerned. I can't imagine they would simply ignore something as important as midi timing.

To see if you have this problem, do the following-

1. Add a midi track and record two quarter notes. Quantize both notes so they are exactly on the beats.

2. Set the output of this midi track to an IAC driver bus. (on Mac)

3. Create a second midi track and set the input to the same IAC driver bus and the output to anything else.

4. Record the output of the first track into the second.

Result= The midi notes recorded into the second track are earlier than the first track. (If you begin the recording directly on the bar containing the notes, the first note will be correctly placed and the second will be early)

As I said before, the amount of displacement is both tempo and buffer size dependent- making a workaround difficult at best. Cubase 8 is so good otherwise that I hate to experience this issue. I had been noticing subtle timing issues and decided to investigate and it seems I'm not the only one with this problem. I remember in a much earlier version of Cubase on Windows a fix having something to do with ignoring a port filter, or something like that. If anyone has a solution for Mac, please let us know. In the meantime, I guess it's back to DP8. I'll miss Expression Maps, VCAs, the Control Room, and so many other things, but I'll be back when this is remedied.
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Re: Midi Notes early (or audio is played early)

Post by NYFC » Thu Jun 04, 2015 3:53 pm

8.0.20 still has the problem. Oh well, I got excited for a moment.
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