Long Save Times 5 instances of Kontakt

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feeserface
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Long Save Times 5 instances of Kontakt

Post by feeserface » Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:13 pm

Hey all,


I have a template I'm creating. Right now it includes 5 'purged' instances of Kontakt. Kontakt 1 has Instrument Banks of Short Strings, K2 has Instrument Banks of Long Strings, K3 Ensemble Strings, K4 Winds, K5 is empty right now.

I've purged all the samples via Kontakt's purge command. However, without any data in the actual sequence the save is already taking about 5-6 seconds. Is this normal?

PS - I'm using 8.05 on a Mac with OS 10.9.5 - I would use vienna, but am experiencing the muting/noise issues that haven't yet been fixed.
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Re: Long Save Times 5 instances of Kontakt

Post by Tanant » Wed Mar 04, 2015 12:02 pm

I don't have that issue on Windows 8.1, Cubase 8.05.
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Re: Long Save Times 5 instances of Kontakt

Post by PeppaPig » Wed Mar 04, 2015 1:01 pm

How many samples you are using will not affect save time - unless you are tight on memory and the harddisk is busy and you're saving whilst playing the project at the same time. Other than that the difference will be nil.
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Re: Long Save Times 5 instances of Kontakt

Post by feeserface » Wed Mar 04, 2015 4:02 pm

Very odd. Empty seq saves very quickly.
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Re: Long Save Times 5 instances of Kontakt

Post by dlpmusic » Wed Mar 04, 2015 4:40 pm

Every Instance of Kontakt can add a 1/2 to 1 second to the save time for me.
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Re: Long Save Times 5 instances of Kontakt

Post by feeserface » Wed Mar 04, 2015 4:57 pm

Wow. If that's true, that's a problem for me. Gonna have to go back to 7.5 and load everything into Vienna.
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Re: Long Save Times 5 instances of Kontakt

Post by feeserface » Wed Mar 04, 2015 9:54 pm

same issue in 7.5
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Re: Long Save Times 5 instances of Kontakt

Post by Rumdrum » Thu Mar 05, 2015 8:58 am

There are some information on the net how to best disc manange Kontakt. Look them up and see if that helps.
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Re: Long Save Times 5 instances of Kontakt

Post by feeserface » Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:09 pm

I'm not sure what you mean. Even if the Kontakts are purged with no samples loaded, or sometimes completely empty the problem doesn't occur. I'm gonna try an experiment later today with logic to see if the problem is Kontakt or Cubase related.
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Re: Long Save Times 5 instances of Kontakt

Post by holywilly » Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:27 pm

I only have the long save times issue when using EWQL PLAY, everything else works fine for me. Cubase 8.05 with 2013 Mac Pro Quad here.

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Re: Long Save Times 5 instances of Kontakt

Post by Rumdrum » Fri Mar 06, 2015 12:19 am

To both of the last OPs on this thread: Pls Complete Your profile so Your system will be displayed. It makes us who try to help you give better advice as some question are environment related.

The Kontakt problem. I have thoroughly watched the tutorials on how to set up Kontakt to avoid:
Long Load time
CPU strain
I have installed accordingly (or as close as I could get). I have no trouble what so ever With Kontakt.
Most People complaining about Kontakt and Omnisphere does not know that some simple steps will get a much better performance.

And yes, Logic and Cubase behave differently when it comes to Kontakt. Logic handles Kontakt better. It has been explained to me why, but I am not able to reproduce the information. It is there on the net if you are interested. That was at least Logic 9. Do not know if the same thin applies to Logic X.
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Re: Long Save Times 5 instances of Kontakt

Post by feeserface » Fri Mar 06, 2015 1:01 am

It's a 2012 mac pro with 64g of ram with 11g of drives for samples and 1 512ssd for strings and brass streaming.
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Re: Long Save Times 5 instances of Kontakt

Post by PeppaPig » Fri Mar 06, 2015 2:21 am

This isn't an "issue" - a complex and very customisable VST such as Kontact will require a fair amount of data to express its current status. Each instance will also have routing options associated with it meaning mixer configurations will have to be accommodated. As I said before - the number of samples isn't the issue. However, if the delay caused by loading or saving what is an incredibly complex and versatile instrument is too much to bare - then perhaps you're in the wrong game or have unreasonable expectations. The first computer I programmed required you to enter machine code (not assembler!) in a step by step basis by flicking switches - it might take an hour to import enough code to make a light blink. FFS cut these guys some slack. If you have to wait 5 seconds to save the kind of sound it would have taken Kraftwerk 6 months to code - think yourself lucky! Rant over.
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Re: Long Save Times 5 instances of Kontakt

Post by feeserface » Sat Mar 07, 2015 5:33 am

What are you talking about? It absolutely is an issue.

I tried the same setup with Logic and Abelton and the issue doesn't exist. That means there's something about Cubase that creates the issue. For better or worse, I'm faster with cubase and would rather not switch. But if workflow is interrupted by that much, it makes the working environment untenable and the switch will have to be made.

I'm glad your Moog and Atari took forever to do menial stuff, but we live now, and my projects are time and workflow sensitive, so please forgive me for wanting things for going well. The Turing machine took forever too and its still ok to complain when your computer runs slow. Its like telling someone that they can't complain that their car goes slowly up a hill because at one point people had to do it on the backs of mules.

I come here and ask questions not to get flamed because a sequencer is working better than Notator did back in the 80's, but instead to find solutions. If you don't have one, fine, but don't come in here and decide that because back in the day you had to walk up hill in the snow both ways that we should all want to work slowly.

I don't think it's too much to ask that a sequencer not take inordinately long to save a sequence. I load very large palettes and with auto save is on, workflow is very horribly interrupted when it autosaves. So now I have the option of turning autosaves off, or dealing with painfully long saves every 10 minutes. Neither of these options is acceptable.

The other solution is to keep the Kontakts loaded in Vienna, but that is unworkable due to the issues Cubase 8 has with Vienna.
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Re: Long Save Times 5 instances of Kontakt

Post by PeppaPig » Sat Mar 07, 2015 12:28 pm

Cubase might have much more internal complexity around each VST instance - hence it takes longer to save - if it's the way the product is coded - you win some, you lose some. Have you tried using your SSD to store your current project? Does that help? If so perhaps you could consider a separate cheapo 100Gb SSD just to store the current project you're working on.
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Re: Long Save Times 5 instances of Kontakt

Post by GPnicolett » Wed Mar 11, 2015 7:55 pm

I just wanna say that I have a similar system to the OP, and that this issue is a HUGE PITA for me and my workflow. I have a frequent autosave set and nothing disrupts the flow more then having to sit 5-8 seconds every five menutes and watch the beachball spin.

It's really, really, really annoying. Not to mention session sizes are now HUGE - I'm at 42 mb per session. My session backups end up taking gigabytes of storage space.

As trivial as this may seem, it really is making me consider switching back to Logic again. It's that annoying.
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Re: Long Save Times 5 instances of Kontakt

Post by feeserface » Wed Mar 11, 2015 7:59 pm

I would totally switch to logic if I was quicker at it as the long saves during work really does disrupt creative flow.

My solution thus far has been to offload all the Kontakts to Vienna on the same box. It's not ideal, but it works.

Be warned, this won't work well with 8 as 8 currently has drop out and digital noise issues with Vienna.
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Re: Long Save Times 5 instances of Kontakt

Post by jono not bono » Wed Mar 11, 2015 9:52 pm

Is there any word if Vienna (or Steinberg) are working on these issues?
Please make me stop buying stuff.

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Re: Long Save Times 5 instances of Kontakt

Post by feeserface » Wed Mar 11, 2015 11:04 pm

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Re: Long Save Times 5 instances of Kontakt

Post by orchetect » Thu Mar 12, 2015 11:44 pm

dlpmusic wrote:Every Instance of Kontakt can add a 1/2 to 1 second to the save time for me.
Not sure that adds up. I have between 40 and 60 Kontakt instances in each of my projects (native, not using VE Pro) and the projects save in 3-5 seconds total.
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Re: Long Save Times 5 instances of Kontakt

Post by dlpmusic » Thu Mar 12, 2015 11:46 pm

They have to be coupled to add that time not decoupled.
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Re: Long Save Times 5 instances of Kontakt

Post by orchetect » Fri Mar 13, 2015 1:14 am

dlpmusic wrote:They have to be coupled to add that time not decoupled.
Right, I remember that. I used to have 6 external sampler PCs that all ran decoupled VE Pro servers and project save times were pretty quick.
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Re: Long Save Times 5 instances of Kontakt

Post by feeserface » Fri Mar 13, 2015 4:57 am

On my system I have Vienna is decoupled until I do a final save to cut down on save times. Thus when the Kontakts are on Vienna the save is very quick. However, I can't use vienna in cubase 8 without turning ASIO guard off and that makes things rather difficult with even just a few processors running.
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Re: Long Save Times 5 instances of Kontakt

Post by shomynik » Wed May 13, 2015 4:30 pm

These long saving times are ...grrrr...so annoying.... I have 10 sec or so for saving an empty project, with no audio, midi events, nothing. Just loaded my template with around 40 Kontakt instances full of instruments ( every instance with 8-16 instruments, samples all purged). Around 250 midi tracks / 100 kontakt outputs.

I did some testing...all those instruments loaded in Kontakts ARE the reason for long saving times. If I unload them, and leave all kontakt instances empty, all the midi tracks, audio outs and all plugins (every audio out has instance of virtual scoring stage 2) stay as well, instant, less than sec, saving times are back.

Maybe samples are not the reason... even when we purge all samples, our ram is occupied with other instrument data...what ever those are :/

But, yeah, still no reason Cubase don't behave like other daws regarding this, cause waiting 10 secs every 5 minutes is good reason for changing DAW, indeed...
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Re: Long Save Times 5 instances of Kontakt

Post by the_rpg_moogle » Wed May 13, 2015 5:27 pm

Same problem here, only with Play instead of Kontakt. But I'm not talking about 30-40 seconds, but upwards of 2 minutes!

And it's not because I've got such an extremely large template. 18GB ram in total. Reaper did this absolutely just fine.

It really is frustrating because the rest of the program is snappy as everything.

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