Midi recorded slightly early (20 ticks)

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Plougot
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Midi recorded slightly early (20 ticks)

Post by Plougot » Wed May 04, 2011 12:41 am

Hi everyone !

I'm having a really annoying problem with midi recording : Midi notes are recorded about 20 ticks early. It might not sound like somethign important, 20 ticks, but when you record melody lines that swing, or drums, it becomes impossible to record a track without tweaking all the midi notes afterwards.

I've checked pretty much everything, and tried everything (I also searched the forums as well )

1) Use System Time Stamp (on both Windows Midi and Direct Music)
2) Ignore midi port filter, and emulated drivers
3) Delay Compensation
4) Adjusting for Latency (currently 6ms)
5) Reinstalling Device Midi Drivers
6) Updating Sound Card Drivers

...

I'm pretty much stuck, now. I've run out of ideas.

One last thing : I noticed that I could increase this 20 ticks shift by increasing my buffer. Nevertheless, It's not possible to reduce it more, and even at the smallest buffer possible, I have shifted midi notes after recording. So it's related, but still, buffer is not the answer.

Thx everyone !
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Re: Midi recorded slightly early (20 ticks)

Post by savadious » Wed May 04, 2011 2:14 am

Just on a whim.

Can you try unplugging EVERY MIDI OUT/THRU

and simply use 1 MIDI IN ?

This was answered years ago in the old forum but I can not seem to find the archive - in fact - I was having that very problem.

I think it was something about my MIDI signal... It has been years and at my old age of 40 - memory is the first thing to go. . . :mrgreen:
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Re: Midi recorded slightly early (20 ticks)

Post by Plougot » Wed May 04, 2011 12:22 pm

Thx for your reply, old man ^^.
It seems I've finally found something which works, thanks to you ! I managed to record my first track perfectly sync without tweaking midi notes... Thank you !
But...
I can't hear what i am playing while i'm playing it. That's a bit annoying, and I don't manage to find a way. I've to playback after the recording to hear what it sounds like. Not so cool...

Any idea, Alzheimer friend ? ^^

Thank you again !

PS : one last question : Do you think my sound card is responsible for this (a pretty old M Audio Audiophile 24-96) ?
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Re: Midi recorded slightly early (20 ticks)

Post by runeharpun » Wed May 04, 2011 12:26 pm

Plougot wrote:PS : one last question : Do you think my sound card is responsible for this (a pretty old M Audio Audiophile 24-96) ?
I think many of the midi issues are caused by timing errors in the sound card drivers and the system in general. On my previous rig, I had to update a motherboard driver in order to fix correct timing.

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Re: Midi recorded slightly early (20 ticks)

Post by savadious » Wed May 04, 2011 1:08 pm

Aah now I remember. EXACTLY !

It was as the previous poster said - timing issues getting sound out of the same exact instrument you are recording from.


My McGyuvered solution was to use a VSTi so I can hear myself play (F-11) even a basic piano will let you feel as you are playing. Then after recording you can then set your keyboard as the output.

Same problem I had on the Delta 1010LT and a MicroKORG


NOTE: Also Re-CHeck your ASIO settings to verify it says M-AUDIO ASIO and not the other ASIO choices (I cant verify the exact wording because the C6 setup is down the hall from my computer room and that long walk would do me in at my age)
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Re: Midi recorded slightly early (20 ticks)

Post by Plougot » Wed May 04, 2011 1:24 pm

Thx all for your replies.

I updated my motherboard / chipset drivers, but it didn't change anything.

To McGuyver/Alzheimer-man : I already use almost exclusively VST. And my main problem now is that with the midi thru unchecked, I don't manage to have direct sound from any midi channel. It seems that midi notes aren't sent to the vst while recording. I keep trying to activate monitoring anywhere I find some monitoring options, but nothing's working for now.
But at least, I begin to understand where my problems are coming from.
Do you think M-Audio is kind of a cursed brand ? ^^
And I also got a KORG (K61), by the way ^^. But since deactivating midi thru makes everything go round, I really think my sound card is responsible...
Sould I buy a new one ? It wouldn't really be a problem, but I just want to be sure that my problem will be solved :p.
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Re: Midi recorded slightly early (20 ticks)

Post by Hippo » Wed May 04, 2011 1:59 pm

"Adjusting for Latency (currently 6ms)"

How are you doing that?

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Re: Midi recorded slightly early (20 ticks)

Post by Plougot » Wed May 04, 2011 2:06 pm

mm, I might not be clear (i'm french, it's kind of difficult to explain these kind of technical stuff).
All I wanted to say is that I have currently sized my buffer so that I have 6 ms latency. Sorry if it doesn't mean that, It's something I saw on another forum, I thought it was about latency and buffer size.
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Re: Midi recorded slightly early (20 ticks)

Post by savadious » Wed May 04, 2011 11:07 pm

Plougot wrote: I already use almost exclusively VST. And my main problem now is that with the midi thru unchecked, I don't manage to have direct sound from any midi channel. It seems that midi notes aren't sent to the vst while recording.
I fixed the problem by physically removing all MIDI cables.
The only MIDI cable I have now are OUTS from my equipment - no ins and no thru's.

I managed that by adding a 4x4 midi interface.

Seems ANY thru or IN caused the problem to resurface.


It was only a work around and I have not heard my MicroKORG since then (years ago)

But - The timing problems went away - along with a few other MIDI related problems (program changes, stuck notes, etc)


When I had the problem I was using an intel Quad core CPU as well and a Gigabyte motherboard and an M-Audio 1010LT. Seems we have at least 66% of the same base hardware family from that. Maybe it was just a fluke hardware combination.
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Re: Midi recorded slightly early (20 ticks)

Post by Plougot » Thu May 05, 2011 12:17 am

mm, my problem is that I already have no midi cables plugged in my audio... My Korg K61 is usb, my CC121 too, and my BCF2000 as well (I know, not very pro, but you do with what you can pay :p).
I have no midi in, no out and no thru...
And my K61 is the only one to be in the "all midi input", so no conflicts here.
Again, if I deactivate "Midi Thru actif" in "preferences / MIDI", no more shifted midi notes, but no more "hearing-midi-while-recording" either :?
Ah, i'm sure we are close, it's so frustrating !
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Re: Midi recorded slightly early (20 ticks)

Post by savadious » Thu May 05, 2011 1:14 am

Plougot wrote: Ah, i'm sure we are close, it's so frustrating !

agree. I will try to get the problem back again tomorrow to see what fixed it.
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Re: Midi recorded slightly early (20 ticks)

Post by Plougot » Thu May 05, 2011 11:42 am

Thank you very much, that's very kind of you, but don't mess up too much with your settings :p. I would really feel guilty to bring it back from the dead ^^.
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Re: Midi recorded slightly early (20 ticks)

Post by Conman » Thu May 05, 2011 6:04 pm

Do you have any midi inputs that you can use? This sounds like a usb chip problem maybe.

This used to be a problem in older Cubase versions and mostly involved usb chipsets so looking at the old Forum archive may throw up an answer.
Look also at your Windows Device Manager and try to find the make of usb chipset, look that up and see if there are any driver solutions (to this problem) on the net.
I forget whether it was a goody or a baddie but Texas Instruments comes to mind here.
At worst you may have to buy a new PCI usb card which might solve the problem.
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Re: Midi recorded slightly early (20 ticks)

Post by Plougot » Fri May 06, 2011 9:03 am

I plugged my korg K61 in midi, just to test. Nothing changed, exactly the same problem. Nevertheless, now that you mention it, I remember that when I was on Windows XP, my webcam and my Korg K61 had some usb conflicts. Nothing like this on 7, but maybe it's juste because it's not mentionned.
Anyway, I need au new PCI usb card, so, wether it solves the problem or not, it won't be a waste of money ^^.
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Re: Midi recorded slightly early (20 ticks)

Post by savadious » Sat May 07, 2011 2:27 am

I could not get this problem to resurface when I loaded up C6 on my old hardware.

But since that time I have upgraded the motherboard BIOS and cut my USB usage from about 6 items to 3 (cc121, Midiman 4x4 and C6 dongle).


The problem did me a BIG favor years ago... it FORCED me to move away from all outboard synths to 100% VST 's which was the best thing I ever din' done. :lol:
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Re: Midi recorded slightly early (20 ticks)

Post by Plougot » Sat May 07, 2011 5:11 pm

Thank you a lot for everything. Since you were not able to get this problem to resurface, I think we can assume I have some hardware problem... I'll try to change my audio card some day...

Thx for everything
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Re: Midi recorded slightly early (20 ticks)

Post by savadious » Sat May 07, 2011 11:27 pm

No problem. M-Audio cards have a lifetime warranty.

Maybe its time to put that to use.
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Re: Midi recorded slightly early (20 ticks)

Post by beerbong » Thu Apr 05, 2012 7:53 pm

*Steinberg*. ADDRESS THIS FLAW TO MIDI RECORDING!!!!!
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Re: Midi recorded slightly early (20 ticks)

Post by Shortstop » Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:13 pm

beerbong wrote:*Steinberg*. ADDRESS THIS FLAW TO MIDI RECORDING!!!!!
You managed to dig up two threads from nearly a year ago that you were not involved in.
( http://www.steinberg.net/forum/viewtopi ... =19&t=8852 )

Do you have a problem or are you only seeking attention?
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Re: Midi recorded slightly early (20 ticks)

Post by Shinta215 » Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:14 pm

beerbong wrote:*Steinberg*. ADDRESS THIS FLAW TO MIDI RECORDING!!!!!
What flaw?

Different drivers, different timestamps.

It's manufacturer specific.

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Re: Midi recorded slightly early (20 ticks)

Post by Shinta215 » Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:17 pm

Shortstop wrote:Do you have a problem or are you only seeking attention?
I'd say both. :lol:

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Re: Midi recorded slightly early (20 ticks)

Post by beerbong » Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:34 pm

Shortstop wrote:
beerbong wrote:*Steinberg*. ADDRESS THIS FLAW TO MIDI RECORDING!!!!!
You managed to dig up two threads from nearly a year ago that you were not involved in.
( http://www.steinberg.net/forum/viewtopi ... =19&t=8852 )

Do you have a problem or are you only seeking attention?
Because Cubase doesn't record Midi in sync with the Metronome? It's a well proven fact, hence the "suggestion" to play at reduced latencies.

It's well documented, yet people dismiss it.

Yea, I'd say I have a problem.

No it's not system specific either, it's Cubase specific.
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Re: Midi recorded slightly early (20 ticks)

Post by beerbong » Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:39 pm

Shinta215 wrote:
beerbong wrote:*Steinberg*. ADDRESS THIS FLAW TO MIDI RECORDING!!!!!
What flaw?

Different drivers, different timestamps.

It's manufacturer specific.
Do you ever notice that audio records precisely as you'd expect, but Midi doesn't?

Midi is recorded in realtime, thus it gets recorded earlier that the playback position. Realtime Midi is useful for monitoring what your playing but not for recording it.
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Re: Midi recorded slightly early (20 ticks)

Post by Shortstop » Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:48 pm

beerbong wrote:Because Cubase doesn't record Midi in sync with the Metronome? It's a well proven fact, hence the "suggestion" to play at reduced latencies.

It's well documented, yet people dismiss it.

Yea, I'd say I have a problem.

No it's not system specific either, it's Cubase specific.
IMHO that's not a very accurate statement and neither is the last one (that it's not system specific).
If this was a common problem you wouldn't have to dig up two old threads to make a statement as this forum would be flooded with threads from outraged customers demanding a fix.

The question remains: Do you have a related problem, and if so, a description or a step by step that we can try to reproduce? (You know, like a bug report?)
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Re: Midi recorded slightly early (20 ticks)

Post by beerbong » Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:51 pm

Shortstop wrote:
beerbong wrote:Because Cubase doesn't record Midi in sync with the Metronome? It's a well proven fact, hence the "suggestion" to play at reduced latencies.

It's well documented, yet people dismiss it.

Yea, I'd say I have a problem.

No it's not system specific either, it's Cubase specific.
IMHO that's not a very accurate statement and neither is the last one (that it's not system specific).
If this was a common problem you wouldn't have to dig up two old threads to make a statement as this forum would be flooded with threads from outraged customers demanding a fix.

The question remains: Do you have a related problem, and if so, a description or a step by step that we can try to reproduce? (You know, like a bug report?)
okay guys sorry for coming off this way, but I think I should start a new thread (although it's described in other ones) for this problem.
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