Mac OS X 10.11 El Capitan status update on compatibility

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Mac OS X 10.11 El Capitan status update on compatibility

Post by Ed Doll » Fri Oct 23, 2015 11:13 am

Dear customers,

We would like to inform you about the current situation regarding compatibility tests on Apple’s latest operating system, El Capitan. In our first statement we were unable to issue a recommendation. We continued to run a considerable number of tests and have come across additional, previously unknown issues. This means that the availability of compatible product versions is further delayed.

We deeply regret the unfortunate news which leads us to advise against updating to OS X 10.11. We’ll keep you posted on anything new in this knowledge base article:
https://www.steinberg.net/nc/en/support ... -info.html
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Re: Mac OS X 10.11 El Capitan status update on compatibility

Post by atlatnesiti » Fri Oct 23, 2015 12:03 pm

As usual, Steinberg can't get things right :(
Somehow, Ableton, Propellehed, Tracktiom and others, managed to have Rl Capitan update OK.
WHY can't Steinberg...?,

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Re: Mac OS X 10.11 El Capitan status update on compatibility

Post by Ed Doll » Fri Oct 23, 2015 12:37 pm

atlatnesiti wrote:As usual, Steinberg can't get things right :(
Somehow, Ableton, Propellehed, Tracktiom and others, managed to have Rl Capitan update OK.
WHY can't Steinberg...?,
I could provide an equally long list of companies who are not or not fully El Capitan ready as well.
It's important to understand that not everything that breaks with an operating system upgrade can be fixed by us. Sometimes it's us, sometimes it Apple and Microsoft who have to fix things.
Never change a running system and wait until the dust has settled and everyone confirmed the compatibility before making the switch. This recommendation will most likely remain valid for the OS upgrades to come.
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Re: Mac OS X 10.11 El Capitan status update on compatibility

Post by hejazzman » Fri Oct 23, 2015 12:41 pm

atlatnesiti wrote:As usual, Steinberg can't get things right :(
Somehow, Ableton, Propellehed, Tracktiom and others, managed to have Rl Capitan update OK.
WHY can't Steinberg...?,
Jesus...

First of all, testing should have started with the developer betas, MONTHS AGO -- those are issued by Apple exactly for that purpose, and other developers DO get on with the program.

Steinberg waited for the bloody official release (not even the GM, which was available weeks earlier) to begin testing...

And the "official announcement" we all waited for 3 weeks was just to tell us that "we need more time" -- not only we haven't got a Cubase point update, but not even a roadmap.

And before I hear the BS about waiting to upgrade etc, not everybody who uses Cubase uses it in a dedicated machine just for it that they can keep with an old OS version, and we sometimes need to upgrade to the latest OS to solve other issues and get to use some new feature that's important to us (including security fixes).

Besides, it's not Steinberg's role to tell us when to update our OS. Their role is to make sure the programs we paid for are usable in new versions. Other software houses don't seem to have that much of a problem with it.

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Re: Mac OS X 10.11 El Capitan status update on compatibility

Post by hejazzman » Fri Oct 23, 2015 12:46 pm

Ed Doll wrote:
atlatnesiti wrote:As usual, Steinberg can't get things right :(
Somehow, Ableton, Propellehed, Tracktiom and others, managed to have Rl Capitan update OK.
WHY can't Steinberg...?,
I could provide an equally long list of companies who are not or not fully El Capitan ready as well.
So are those companies Steinberg's role models or the former?
Ed Doll wrote:It's important to understand that not everything that breaks with an operating system upgrade can be fixed by us. Sometimes it's us, sometimes it Apple and Microsoft who have to fix things.
In that case you can state so in your public announcement: "Sorry, but we're waiting for a specific fix or fixes from Apple". Unless this is all hypothetical, and is not the case here.
Ed Doll wrote:Never change a running system and wait until the dust has settled and everyone confirmed the compatibility before making the switch. This recommendation will most likely remain valid for the OS upgrades to come.
And never wait until the OFFICIAL RELEASE to begin testing, fixing bugs and giving feedback to Apple, when there are the bloody DEVELOPER releases. This recommendation will ALSO most likely remain valid for the OS upgrades to come.

Also it's best if third-party software companies don't dictate what people can and cannot do with their PCs and OS updates. Because "wait until the dust has settled" can also mean "we're short staffed or lazy and we can't be bothered, halt your upgrading until we get our act together".

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Re: Mac OS X 10.11 El Capitan status update on compatibility

Post by Ed Doll » Fri Oct 23, 2015 1:15 pm

hejazzman wrote:
Also it's best if third-party software companies don't dictate what people can and cannot do with their PCs and OS updates.
Indeed, that's someting we prefer to leave to the OS manufacturers.
hejazzman wrote: Because "wait until the dust has settled" can also mean "we're short staffed or lazy and we can't be bothered, halt your upgrading until we get our act together".
Please re-read my post above. Some issues cannot be fixed by third party developers, they need to be fixed by Apple or Microsoft. And I guess this is why operating system updates are released. And just like every software developer even Apple and Microsoft have their priorities in fixing reported issues (which is perfectly fine) so it can happen that even if other companies report issues, fixes/changes might not be available in time.

For instance, there are issues with Microsoft Office 2016 in El Capitan. Who released a fix for that? Apple.
There are issues with Audio Unit plug-ins in El Capitan. Who released a fix just the other day? Apple.

This has nothing to do with being lazy, it just shows that the operating system itself is a highly complex software and not everything is dependent on third parties getting their act together.
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Re: Mac OS X 10.11 El Capitan status update on compatibility

Post by vivo » Fri Oct 23, 2015 2:28 pm

It would be nice to know what the issues exactly are that have been found.

Some kind of list or something like that.....? Or is it that confidential?
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Re: Mac OS X 10.11 El Capitan status update on compatibility

Post by Ed Doll » Fri Oct 23, 2015 2:36 pm

There is a list of issues from both us and Yamaha (for the hardware). I cannot post anything now but we will have a meeting early next week and I hope that we'll be able to set up a knowledge base article with details afterwards.
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Re: Mac OS X 10.11 El Capitan status update on compatibility

Post by andre4stein » Fri Oct 23, 2015 3:03 pm

A fix is for something that is not working, but I can't find anything on my mac osx 10.11 that is not working except Cubase 8 :)
What should be fixed by Apple exactly? I guess you are in touch with them and they gave you at least an estimated date to get such fix...

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Re: Mac OS X 10.11 El Capitan status update on compatibility

Post by Svenne » Fri Oct 23, 2015 3:08 pm

This is beginning to look like a shouting match with accusations and excuses, flying all over the place. Everyone's points has merits. Cubase is a very complex piece of software, and as such needs time to work out any kinks with a new OS version. Therefore Steinberg should have made better use of the betas of El Capitan, a.s.o.

However, Ed, there is one thing that you guys need to accept responsibility for. We were promised a list of identified issues and how the work of solving them was progressing, on October 23. What we got, was a slap in the face! Of cause, this will p**s people off.

I suggest you put together a list of issues that you've identified and which you've solved. That way we could all see that you don't sit around, eating chocolate (as some people seem to think ;) ), but are actually hard at work. This would be very helpful as we can follow the progress. We'll also be able to see if the reaming issues are on any concern to us. If all the remaining issues are connected with features one never use anyway, maybe one can take the plunge.



And, maybe, your users have identified an issue or two that you've missed.

I have a question aswell, Ed. I recently invested in an Avid Artist Control/Mix system. I've heard that there are some issues with the EUCON software (and El Capitan). However, I am a bit unsure who will release the fix for it. Is it Steinberg or Avid? Perhaps you could clarify this.
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Re: Mac OS X 10.11 El Capitan status update on compatibility

Post by vivo » Fri Oct 23, 2015 3:10 pm

Just one more thing : have you @steinberg also tested 10.11.1 that came out?

Maybe some issues of the list are already fixed by 10.11.1 ?
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Re: Mac OS X 10.11 El Capitan status update on compatibility

Post by andre4stein » Fri Oct 23, 2015 3:46 pm

vivo wrote:Just one more thing : have you @steinberg also tested 10.11.1 that came out?

Maybe some issues of the list are already fixed by 10.11.1 ?

Just upgraded, Just tried to run Cubase Artist 8.0.30 , no way... I'm stuck here:

Exception Type: EXC_BAD_ACCESS (SIGSEGV)
Exception Codes: KERN_INVALID_ADDRESS at 0x000000012191cd98
Exception Note: EXC_CORPSE_NOTIFY

no able to run the program at all. If you know this has some solution please address me... Thx

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Re: Mac OS X 10.11 El Capitan status update on compatibility

Post by vivo » Fri Oct 23, 2015 4:07 pm

@andre4stein, all I can think about is entering in a terminal : "sudo nvram boot-args="rootless=0" which disables system protection on 10.11, then reboot and try.

Set it to 1 to enable again if it does not matter.

Edit: @andre4stein I assume you have 8.0.30? I can run it on 10.11.1 but it's the pro version.
Last edited by vivo on Fri Oct 23, 2015 4:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mac OS X 10.11 El Capitan status update on compatibility

Post by andre4stein » Fri Oct 23, 2015 4:09 pm

Thanks, already disabled it but unfortunately nothing to do.

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Re: Mac OS X 10.11 El Capitan status update on compatibility

Post by shanabit » Fri Oct 23, 2015 5:52 pm

:oops: If I only had a diff interface

Lots of parts and pieces to check though fellas, just sayin. Many I/O's, controllers, etc to fix code on
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Re: Mac OS X 10.11 El Capitan status update on compatibility

Post by misosoup » Fri Oct 23, 2015 8:29 pm

One of the problems is that people seemed to have 8.0.3 working fine on the public betas - but somewhere between those and the actual 10.11 public release, something must have been changed because everything broke. My version is bricked, and won't even open - but I knew I was looking for trouble taking the advice of the beta users and upgrading wholesale before checking that it was officially supported. FTR I've had to wait 3 weeks for the 10.11.1 release to un-break my NI plugs so I could use Logic - and a lot of pain would have been saved if I'd just checked the official announcements first rather than diving straight in, because 8.0.3 was running sweet as a nut.
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Re: Mac OS X 10.11 El Capitan status update on compatibility

Post by paaltio » Fri Oct 23, 2015 8:31 pm

atlatnesiti wrote:As usual, Steinberg can't get things right :(
Somehow, Ableton, Propellehed, Tracktiom and others, managed to have Rl Capitan update OK.
WHY can't Steinberg...?,
A lot of companies including Native Instruments had issues with El Capitan. Also, Apple is notorious for breaking things with OS updates, so singling out Steinberg in this case is completely unwarranted.
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Re: Mac OS X 10.11 El Capitan status update on compatibility

Post by JeffTD » Fri Oct 23, 2015 8:56 pm

paaltio wrote: A lot of companies including Native Instruments had issues with El Capitan. Also, Apple is notorious for breaking things with OS updates, so singling out Steinberg in this case is completely unwarranted.
100% warranted. They should've been testing on all the dev betas that went out MONTHS AND MONTHS before the GM candidate was decided on. This is on Steinberg for being slow to adopt to new standards, update old tech, and fix their product as usual.

Native Instruments always has software issues - they should not be the standard by which we judge software companies.

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Re: Mac OS X 10.11 El Capitan status update on compatibility

Post by paaltio » Fri Oct 23, 2015 10:09 pm

JeffTD wrote:They should've been testing on all the dev betas that went out MONTHS AND MONTHS before the GM candidate was decided on.
I sure hope they haven't. That would be a huge waste of time. Apple has been known to break things in fairly late builds, so it makes no sense for Steinberg to go through the headache of developing on beta OS X and Xcode builds, and then finding it doesn't work after all in GM.
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Re: Mac OS X 10.11 El Capitan status update on compatibility

Post by lebouch » Fri Oct 23, 2015 11:43 pm

I don't know enough to say whether Steinberg should have started work on this weeks ago or not but I do find it disappointing that some weeks later Steinberg seem to have done.... nothing.

We've all been waiting for the 23rd and we still don't even know what the problems are, let alone when the fixes are coming. And now we have to wait until Monday for Steinberg to have another meeting to discuss that!

Perhaps I'm doing them a dis-service but I don't get the impression that the lights are burning long into the night at Steinberg Towers..
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Re: Mac OS X 10.11 El Capitan status update on compatibility

Post by JeffTD » Sat Oct 24, 2015 1:16 am

paaltio wrote:I sure hope they haven't. That would be a huge waste of time. Apple has been known to break things in fairly late builds, so it makes no sense for Steinberg to go through the headache of developing on beta OS X and Xcode builds, and then finding it doesn't work after all in GM.
No, the point isn't to develop on the beta, it's to know up-front, early on, specifically what's breaking because of the new OS. Check back periodically as they update it. If the same *flower* is broken after a few builds and you haven't at least taken note of the issues down and maybe brainstormed some very general, off-the-cuff potential fixes, then when they wind up still being issues in the GM you've got a huge head start.

It's not like Steinberg could just NOT support the new OS eventually - they're going to update it, end of story. They clearly decided that it was not a priority in this case to prepare for potential issues that'd be introduced with a new OS, and like you said: "Apple has been known" to do this. Steinberg can't claim ignorance here - I'm not saying they just sat on their asses doing nothing (although we're still not good on Retina machines and don't get very frequent updates...), but they pretty plainly didn't prioritize for this but are trying to pass it on as if it's Apples fault.

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Re: Mac OS X 10.11 El Capitan status update on compatibility

Post by RamPan » Sat Oct 24, 2015 5:51 am

I understand the excuses Steinberg is giving, I strongly disagree although I'm trying to be understanding but I just can't help but feel mad towards both, Apple for breaking things with every update they do, and Steinberg for not caring enough.
The fact of asking the customer to stay with an older version is in my opinion so so sad, as if someone tells you, can't drive your car on newly paved roads, they could break your car. Unacceptable.

There should be a law forcing companies to have an obligation making sure there software is fully functional with new operating systems before they get released full stop.
Until such law "if it will ever exist" I urge everyone that is not happy to express anger and disagreement about it.
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Re: Mac OS X 10.11 El Capitan status update on compatibility

Post by john springate » Sat Oct 24, 2015 7:35 am

I have to say that Ive always been a sucker for an upgrade but as Steinberg state-wait until the problems have been sorted-I mean do you REALLy need to upgrade to El Captian? (Dreadful name BTW) Is it REALLY that Important to go from a comfortable fire in to a frying pan nightmare?? Mmmm-I feel a song coming on! And thats what we should all be thinking about rather than a new OS which lets face it isn't going to make that much difference anyway. I rest my case:-)
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Re: Mac OS X 10.11 El Capitan status update on compatibility

Post by lebouch » Sat Oct 24, 2015 8:11 am

john springate wrote:I have to say that Ive always been a sucker for an upgrade but as Steinberg state-wait until the problems have been sorted-I mean do you REALLy need to upgrade to El Captian? (Dreadful name BTW) Is it REALLY that Important to go from a comfortable fire in to a frying pan nightmare?? Mmmm-I feel a song coming on! And thats what we should all be thinking about rather than a new OS which lets face it isn't going to make that much difference anyway. I rest my case:-)
Hmmm. As someone above said, surely that depends on whether you use your Mac for things other than Cubase? There are a number of very useful updates to El Capitan (crap name - agreed!) and some things (wifi drop, iCloud sync) that never really worked properly for some under Yosemite.

Additionally, if you are immersed in the Apple world you need El Capitan to ensure you get maximum compatibility between OSX and iOS 9.1.

I suspect something is being lost in the German to English translation but I find Steinberg's response lacking.
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Re: Mac OS X 10.11 El Capitan status update on compatibility

Post by paaltio » Sat Oct 24, 2015 9:53 am

JeffTD wrote:No, the point isn't to develop on the beta, it's to know up-front, early on, specifically what's breaking because of the new OS.
Well this seems to be the crux of the issue. Where do you get the impression that this is possible?

I've spoken with numerous OS X and iOS developers, and they've all complained about the same issue: the early beta releases are not good indicators of what will and will not break, so they can't prepare for GM based on those. Fixing things that break during the beta cycle may be completely wasted work, since Apple may fix it themselves at any point. Alternatively, things that seemed to work earlier in the beta cycle will break later, even only at GM. Some issues are in core OS services where Steinberg "fixing" it would mean creating a separate code path just for that OS release where they kludge around that issue. That is not healthy software development.

I'm sure many of us think of Steinberg as a big company, because it's one of the major DAW houses and Yamaha is their parent company, but the truth is this is a niche market and the companies that work within it really have to manage their limited resources. Throw into that the fact that realtime audio applications are one of the most challenging to maintain through OS updates, and there's no scenario where this works 100% of the time. Ever. I would love compatibility on day one also, but Steinberg can't play whack-a-mole with beta APIs, and Apple isn't going to deliver GM months before release.
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