A open plea to Steinberg... again....

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noiseboyuk
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A open plea to Steinberg... again....

Post by noiseboyuk » Thu Jan 14, 2016 6:39 pm

I was pleasantly surprised by the response to my original thread here - viewtopic.php?f=226&t=88895 . It sounded like you actually got it - that Cubase needed a period of consolidation with many many small feature improvements and bug fixes. I made reference to 1020 improvements needed - hyperbolic, admittedly, but it was an obvious attempt to demonstrate the scale of the problem.

You replied with a loud "we hear you", a promise to collate the issues and put it to us in January. This has now happened. But rather than 1020 to whittle down, we have... um... 16:

Enhanced window handling
More insert slots per channel
Ability to change channel order in the mixer
Ability to free-warp multiple audio events at the same time
Parameter Undo/redo history for MixConsole
Extend options to import tracks/channels in a project
VariAudio editing for multiple audio clips in one Sample Editor window to edit in context
Bézier curves and automation tools
Allow to show and edit automation data on top of track data
Changing channel width of tracks (Mono <-> Stereo) on the fly
One button-control tape machine-style varispeed
Extend resizing possibilities for the rack zone
Basic sampler
Wave Meters representing real-time processing like compression, limiting, etc.
Open VST Instruments and FX plug-ins of one channel in tabs
RMS level/peak over-time detection track

16 issues, with the clear implication that only the top few of these will be addressed. A couple of these would be useful to be sure, but not a single one made it from on my own list of most urgent changes that need to happen:

ASIOguard 2 improvements re VE Pro
CPU optimisation
Disabled track bugs and feature improvements
Quicktime Export
Enchanced duplicate tracks
Disabling the new window edge pop ups
VCA record arming (though I hear this will be addressed via a post by a Steinberg rep on another forum)

There's not even the lowest hanging fruit, a publicly viewable look at what is already slated to be fixed in future updates.

This isn't really what I had in mind. Is this really the sum total of you hearing our message? Or can we ask you to think again, raising your level of ambition for solving this problem just a shade?
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Re: A open plea to Steinberg... again....

Post by J-S-Q » Thu Jan 14, 2016 7:24 pm

Personally, I am very happy with what they've posted. It's en excellent step forward in having a dialogue with the users. My personal favourites, which I would LOVE to see implemented are:

1. Parameter Undo/redo history for MixConsole
2. VariAudio editing for multiple audio clips in one Sample Editor window to edit in context

What I would probably put at the top of the list for ME would be further development for Eucon controllers but I recognise that this is probably a minority interest so I won't have a tantrum because it's not on the list.

Nice move from Steinberg as far as I'm concerned.
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Re: A open plea to Steinberg... again....

Post by westwoodi » Thu Jan 14, 2016 8:41 pm

For me, Steinberg seem to have missed the point again. My first two items on any list would be:

- Fix all the bugs in the collected issues list
- Fix as many as the other bugs reported by users as possible. (BTW I don't understand why most of them don't get transferred to the collected issues list)

After that, then I will gladly consider what new features, or feature enhancements I would like to see

Thanks, Ian
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Re: A open plea to Steinberg... again....

Post by Puma0382 » Thu Jan 14, 2016 8:45 pm

J-S-Q wrote:Personally, I am very happy with what they've posted. It's en excellent step forward in having a dialogue with the users. My personal favourites, which I would LOVE to see implemented are:

1. Parameter Undo/redo history for MixConsole
2. VariAudio editing for multiple audio clips in one Sample Editor window to edit in context

What I would probably put at the top of the list for ME would be further development for Eucon controllers but I recognise that this is probably a minority interest so I won't have a tantrum because it's not on the list.

Nice move from Steinberg as far as I'm concerned.
I agree - this has to be viewed positively; come on guys... ;)

I don't think their list in that survey is an either/or situation; they're not going to work on the results of that to the exclusion of all else..!!. For example, the things @noiseboyuk wants looking at will be attended to alongside those bigger ticket items, which will take us up to years end with the release of C Pro 9.

(That's my belief anyway - perhaps a word from SB along those lines would calm any further backlash..?)

As noted above by @westwoodi, the bug-fix list on the 'Collected Issues' page, if fully addressed, should cover a good deal of the most recent complaints of performance, window handling, broken/bad implementation of VCA's, etc, etc.
I do not in any way expect that list to be ignored/forgotten/postponed in the shorter term.

Cheers,
Bob
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Re: A open plea to Steinberg... again....

Post by westwoodi » Thu Jan 14, 2016 9:04 pm

@Puma0382 - I wish I could share your positive attitude. The last two 8.0 releases have been very light on fixes for collected issues. I agree that a postive word from SB on the matter would be most welcome.

Ian
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Re: A open plea to Steinberg... again....

Post by J-S-Q » Thu Jan 14, 2016 9:12 pm

I just don't know what some people are expecting here. Do you want a pole that says: "Would you like us to fix the bugs?: YES/NO"? Who is going to vote NO in that pole?
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Re: A open plea to Steinberg... again....

Post by Xtigma » Thu Jan 14, 2016 9:26 pm

noiseboyuk wrote:I was pleasantly surprised by the response to my original thread here - viewtopic.php?f=226&t=88895 . It sounded like you actually got it - that Cubase needed a period of consolidation with many many small feature improvements and bug fixes. I made reference to 1020 improvements needed - hyperbolic, admittedly, but it was an obvious attempt to demonstrate the scale of the problem.

You replied with a loud "we hear you", a promise to collate the issues and put it to us in January. This has now happened. But rather than 1020 to whittle down, we have... um... 16:

Enhanced window handling
More insert slots per channel
Ability to change channel order in the mixer
Ability to free-warp multiple audio events at the same time
Parameter Undo/redo history for MixConsole
Extend options to import tracks/channels in a project
VariAudio editing for multiple audio clips in one Sample Editor window to edit in context
Bézier curves and automation tools
Allow to show and edit automation data on top of track data
Changing channel width of tracks (Mono <-> Stereo) on the fly
One button-control tape machine-style varispeed
Extend resizing possibilities for the rack zone
Basic sampler
Wave Meters representing real-time processing like compression, limiting, etc.
Open VST Instruments and FX plug-ins of one channel in tabs
RMS level/peak over-time detection track

16 issues, with the clear implication that only the top few of these will be addressed. A couple of these would be useful to be sure, but not a single one made it from on my own list of most urgent changes that need to happen:

ASIOguard 2 improvements re VE Pro
CPU optimisation
Disabled track bugs and feature improvements
Quicktime Export
Enchanced duplicate tracks
Disabling the new window edge pop ups
VCA record arming (though I hear this will be addressed via a post by a Steinberg rep on another forum)

There's not even the lowest hanging fruit, a publicly viewable look at what is already slated to be fixed in future updates.

This isn't really what I had in mind. Is this really the sum total of you hearing our message? Or can we ask you to think again, raising your level of ambition for solving this problem just a shade?
without trying to be disrespectful to you, the This list contains some of my most wanted cubase features for the past 10 years, that List mostly represents me, the list of additional issues you mention, apart from CPU optimisation, doesnt really help me at all.

my point being, i'm happy with the features that they have mentioned as major ones.

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Re: A open plea to Steinberg... again....

Post by westwoodi » Thu Jan 14, 2016 9:32 pm

I believe that in the original thread that many people expressed the view that SB keep making changes, and the rate at which new bugs are introduced is often higher than the rate at which they are fixed. So the point is, and I apologise if I am wrong with this interpretation, or indeed if it is just my viewpoint, but I would like to see many of the bugs fixed before any new features are added.
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Re: A open plea to Steinberg... again....

Post by vespesian » Thu Jan 14, 2016 9:48 pm

westwoodi wrote:I believe that in the original thread that many people expressed the view that SB keep making changes, and the rate at which new bugs are introduced is often higher than the rate at which they are fixed. So the point is, and I apologise if I am wrong with this interpretation, or indeed if it is just my viewpoint, but I would like to see many of the bugs fixed before any new features are added.

Exactly. The features in the survey are great - but are beside the point...I think many users were asking Steinberg to reconsider it's approach to future development, and I thought, judging from the original response, we were to be more involved in that. It's not a huge deal for me - 8.5 works well here, despite a few wrinkles - but the 'tone-deafness' of this survey is a little disconcerting.

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Re: A open plea to Steinberg... again....

Post by noiseboyuk » Thu Jan 14, 2016 10:00 pm

westwoodi wrote:I believe that in the original thread that many people expressed the view that SB keep making changes, and the rate at which new bugs are introduced is often higher than the rate at which they are fixed. So the point is, and I apologise if I am wrong with this interpretation, or indeed if it is just my viewpoint, but I would like to see many of the bugs fixed before any new features are added.
Yup, that's it.

It's a dreadful misreading of the thread to throw these 16 out there for us for fight over, and that's it. That thread was about making what we have work properly, either in terms of bug fixes or usability enhancements. And there are a LOT of these.
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Re: A open plea to Steinberg... again....

Post by dbh » Fri Jan 15, 2016 7:02 am

A the survey was a complete misreading of the stated problem IMO. I took the survey expecting to be a cherry pick list of top bugs to fix rather than new things to work on (although there is some crossover - I still have problems with Windows handling over several monitors so calling it "fix" or "enhance" doesn't matter to me - just make it work).

I, and I'm sure many others, would gladly pay for an update only containing bug fixes.

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Re: A open plea to Steinberg... again....

Post by karlito » Fri Jan 15, 2016 7:22 am

J-S-Q wrote:I just don't know what some people are expecting here. Do you want a pole that says: "Would you like us to fix the bugs?: YES/NO"? Who is going to vote NO in that pole?
It's really not that hard J-S-Q, not Yes/No, but which ones first.
Instead, they've changed the subject.
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Re: A open plea to Steinberg... again....

Post by fretthefret » Fri Jan 15, 2016 8:01 am

dbh wrote:A the survey was a complete misreading of the stated problem IMO. I took the survey expecting to be a cherry pick list of top bugs to fix rather than new things to work on (although there is some crossover - I still have problems with Windows handling over several monitors so calling it "fix" or "enhance" doesn't matter to me - just make it work).

I, and I'm sure many others, would gladly pay for an update only containing bug fixes.
BUT... Should we have to though... Really?!

I know some of us are very desperate for fixes in certain areas of the software but,
Would you say the same about ANY other product you bought?

"Sorry that the brand new, fancy high-tech television you bought only gets 3 channels, but if you pay us again for features we already sold you, we'll fix it for you!"

Make sense?
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Re: A open plea to Steinberg... again....

Post by karlito » Fri Jan 15, 2016 8:03 am

westwoodi wrote:For me, Steinberg seem to have missed the point again.
Surely, they could not have missed it. The 400+ posts in the big thread were anything but ambiguous.
They've just decided to ignore it.

This kind of strategy has become a trend in the last 15-20 years, companies have understood that peoples attention span shortens on a daily basis and, most often than not, an angry user will still pay for the next small, buggy and insignificant update simply because he has to have the latest, shiniest and most up to date of ... ANYTHING. It does not matter what it is as long as it's the latest version, and as long as it has 2-3 new features, no matter how small.

This is the majority and, as a result, the CEOs, CFOs, PR and marketing managers are making their buck. Regardless.

I can't believe how many people raved on this forum for the 8 and 8.5 new features, but this is exactly my point.
"Give me a new popup window, change some icons and add two menu entries and I am sold!"
And that after 1 year of development.

I just saw a demo of FL Studio the other day and it blew my mind. I personally don't like nor do I know anything about it, but I have all the respect for their effort. Truly innovative and snappy UI and a ton of well designed new features. Check out v12, you'll see what I mean.

Shame.
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Re: A open plea to Steinberg... again....

Post by Xtigma » Fri Jan 15, 2016 1:47 pm

I'm confused, they said they would look through the list of most requested features and find the most requested ones, and everyone is annoyed? this is exactly what they said they would do.

Several people have said that they should fix every bug on the bugs list before adding any new feature. that's not what I want, not every bug on that list affects everyone, in fact right now I can honestly say there are 0 bugs that actually affect me.

if what you want is for the most important bugs to be fixed first, then what you should do is create a list of the bugs that matter to you, then have a vote.

at least 8 of the new features they mentioned would be absolutely massive for me, and would change the way I work for the better.

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Re: A open plea to Steinberg... again....

Post by westwoodi » Fri Jan 15, 2016 3:14 pm

It seems from the comments so far that people had different expectations of what SB had said they would do.
Having just looked back at what Guillermo posted last December, I realise he was in fact completely non-commital on what they were promising, so it is not suprising that each of us had different expectations.

"As we have done in the past, and as you deem necessary once again, we are now collecting your comments and suggestions from which we shall compile a list. We shall share this list with you in January, giving you the opportunity to involve yourself with prioritisation of mentioned points. "

For anyone in the UK who remembers the 'Yes Minister' situation comedy series, they will possibly liken this to Sir Humphrey Appleby!

Some of us expressed the desire for bugs to be fixed ahead of new features. For you @Xtigma, if you experience none of the bugs then you are lucky and quite rightly are more interested in new features. Some of the collected issues affect me big time, so I would rather see them fixed ahead of new features.

SB have presented a list which basically makes no reference to bug fixes. Without an explanation from SB, it is unclear why they were ommited, and where they see bug fixing sit in their list of priorities.

Just my thoughts, Ian
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Re: A open plea to Steinberg... again....

Post by mbourque » Fri Jan 15, 2016 9:56 pm

Headlands wrote:I must agree that not seeing CPU optimization at least in the top three is mind boggling to me.
I guess they probably have their own list of things they are sure to work on. Well, I wish :shock:
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Re: A open plea to Steinberg... again....

Post by Wolfie2112 » Fri Jan 15, 2016 10:55 pm

I always find these type of posts amusing! Is it really THAT bad? Are you not able to get any work done because of these so-called bugs? Sorry, I don't buy it. Hans Zimmer seems to be pumping out major film scores with the same program :D I work with Cubase, Logic X and PT professionally and have no issues (other than petty annoyances that come with any DAW). Seriously, all of the whining is ridiculous. Sure, I don't like the $50 update policy, but that has nothing to do with performance, etc.

Anyways, just had to throw in my 2 cents. :)

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Re: A open plea to Steinberg... again....

Post by indiescore » Sat Jan 16, 2016 8:26 am

noiseboyuk wrote:
westwoodi wrote:I believe that in the original thread that many people expressed the view that SB keep making changes, and the rate at which new bugs are introduced is often higher than the rate at which they are fixed. So the point is, and I apologise if I am wrong with this interpretation, or indeed if it is just my viewpoint, but I would like to see many of the bugs fixed before any new features are added.
Yup, that's it.

It's a dreadful misreading of the thread to throw these 16 out there for us for fight over, and that's it. That thread was about making what we have work properly, either in terms of bug fixes or usability enhancements. And there are a LOT of these.


Well your original post is now legendary..I never thought it was posted though to drive a feature request (contest) that would have been a FR post, not a plea. Of course who doesn't want new features and some of those listed in the survey are good but the majority asked for first and foremost more attention called to efficiency and performance, better multi core support, bugs. so maybe I missed the fix it list or its coming soon....
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Re: A open plea to Steinberg... again....

Post by bronswerk » Sat Jan 16, 2016 11:28 am

I'm holding back on Cubase 8 for quite some time now (still on 7.5). I've read too many stories about CPU/ASIO handling not working well and bad windows management, imo 2 very crucial parts of any daw. The way Steinberg handles issues/bugs really makes me wonder if I want to continue with Cubase.

Since marketing (read announcements of new products in my mailbox or even worse endorsements by people I've never heard of) became so important, I really have a feeling Cubase is alienating for me. I wouldn't be surprised if the R&D division is outnumbered by the marketing one. Gone are the days when developers were driven to make an awesome daw and had their own personal view how that should look like. Today everything is directed by managers and developers are forced to follow the guidelines set by them.

This survey that Steinberg made doesn't address real issues (see above) simply because it doesn't fit their bugfix/update strategy, which is already set in stone months in advance.
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Re: A open plea to Steinberg... again....

Post by alexis » Sat Jan 16, 2016 4:24 pm

I was disappointed, greatly, by the Steinberg response. "You users speak, we listen" isn't the impression I was left with after reading the poll.

I expected to see things like an acknowledgement of the CPU and other very important issues, and also asking us to rank the bug list.

I was also hoping the very sparse Steinberg presence on the forums would increase, so there would be respectful, even *creative* dialog between Steinberg and the user community.

I so much want some of the C8 and 8.5 features, but no way I'm leaving my very smoothly functioning 7.5.40 to get them ... until those major problems are resolved.
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Re: A open plea to Steinberg... again....

Post by jonsolo » Sat Jan 16, 2016 10:22 pm

I could be wrong but...

I read their initial response as being that they ARE AWARE of the bugs and would be working on those, but that they are ALSO listening to us on things that Cubase needs (in our opinions). So while they are working on updates to fix the bugs, they would ALSO focus on some of the most desired features.

Realistically everything listed seemed to be a feature. Therefore, it would make great sense to conclude that they are working on "fix" releases in the meantime. The fact that they are bothering at all to look at features before another major release is pretty amazing.

Having been a dev before, I wish everyone appreciated how important it is to a dev to fix bugs. I don't think Steinberg is jerking anyone around. But they not only have to reproduce the bug, they have to determine what impact a fix may have on some other "well working" part of the product.

It is like working on a VW (keeping things all German here)...you can replace the water pump. But you better replace the timing belt and pullys while you are at it, or there will be different issues to arise down the road. So a "tiny" fix could amount to an astronomical change in the entire structure of the product.

Cubase works well for me. There are a few small issues. And every DAW I use (see signature) has SOMETHING that is an issue...strike that...MANY SOMETHINGS that are issues.

I am confident they are aware of their issues and are working on them.
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Re: A open plea to Steinberg... again....

Post by Mrhehon » Sat Jan 16, 2016 11:21 pm

jonsolo wrote:
I am confident they are aware of their issues and are working on them.
All makes sense to me.
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Re: A open plea to Steinberg... again....

Post by noiseboyuk » Sun Jan 17, 2016 12:02 pm

jonsolo wrote:I could be wrong but...

I read their initial response as being that they ARE AWARE of the bugs and would be working on those, but that they are ALSO listening to us on things that Cubase needs (in our opinions). So while they are working on updates to fix the bugs, they would ALSO focus on some of the most desired features.

Realistically everything listed seemed to be a feature. Therefore, it would make great sense to conclude that they are working on "fix" releases in the meantime. The fact that they are bothering at all to look at features before another major release is pretty amazing.

Having been a dev before, I wish everyone appreciated how important it is to a dev to fix bugs. I don't think Steinberg is jerking anyone around. But they not only have to reproduce the bug, they have to determine what impact a fix may have on some other "well working" part of the product.

It is like working on a VW (keeping things all German here)...you can replace the water pump. But you better replace the timing belt and pullys while you are at it, or there will be different issues to arise down the road. So a "tiny" fix could amount to an astronomical change in the entire structure of the product.

Cubase works well for me. There are a few small issues. And every DAW I use (see signature) has SOMETHING that is an issue...strike that...MANY SOMETHINGS that are issues.

I am confident they are aware of their issues and are working on them.
Hopefully you are right. Unfortunately, they've said nothing to indicate this is the case. So far, this is the sum total of the communication between Them and Us. "We hear you, we've listened, and here is our response - ta da". Hence this thread really. They responded before, they should respond again. If this is just a small part of their battle plan, if they have all (or nearly all) our other issues already prioritised and taken care of... well for heaven's sake tell us. Give us the details. An inappropriate public poll open to obvious abuse and a couple of paragraphs is hardly a major company / customer communciations breakthrough, is it?

(Oh, and not sure the VW analogy is necessarily helping their cause....)
Win 10 64 bit, i7 4930, 64gb RAM, 2x GT610, RME Babyface, Cubase 9.01, PT 12HD
Macbook Pro 2015, 2.8ghz i7, 16gb RAM

http://www.guyrowland.co.uk

ckon
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Posts: 317
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Re: A open plea to Steinberg... again....

Post by ckon » Sun Jan 17, 2016 9:47 pm

Still can't help but see only an Ivory Tower.
ckon:

C Pro 10.0.50 (and all previous)
Main host system:
Win10pro - x64
i7 3770k - 4.5GHZ, 32GB RAM, OS on SSD
RME interfaces.
Museum DAW: Apple Mac LCII Opcode Studio Vision.

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