The Windows problem - any news?

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Maegin
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The Windows problem - any news?

Post by Maegin » Thu Jun 16, 2011 10:29 pm

Hi.

Long time Cubase user in semi-pro project studio here. Now on C6 which introduced some very nice features indeed.

I was just wondering if there are any news on the windows resizing issues? It is my experience, that Cubase has always been a hassle when it comes to handling windows in Windows. I don't get the Steinberg excuse of "Cubase just handles windows the way Windows does". I know of no other professional and complex programs that run under Windows, which have the same problems. I know of all the work-arounds there are, and use some of them, but in a professional DAW in 2011 it should not be necessary with a workaround on such an important point.

Now I've read some old posts in the archives. In one of the threads users discussed, that it was possible, that it was to expensive for Steinberg to redesign the basic GUI. Especially when compared to the option of putting in more features when releasing a new product. The idea was that new flashy features could attract new customers and keep old customers buying upgrades. Fixing such a basic thing as the GUI for workflow was not flashy - and though it should of course be streamlined for user experience and working - moneywise it was not a good deal for Steinberg.

If that IS the case I hope Steinberg changes their mind very soon. I think many of their pro and semi-pro users would rather have important workflow issues fixed compared to new fancy features and more or less useless synths. I can only speak for myself of course...

I say as much though: when you compare the GUI in C6 to programs such as Presonus Studio One and Ableton Live - Cubase seems lost in the last millium workflow wise.

Studio One is a new product and still lacks some basic audio and midi features. But the GUI is way ahead of Cubase imo. So much in fact, that I would not hesitate to sell my Cubase and migrate to S1.

However! I've heard RUMORS, that C7 would introduce a similar GUI and the random resizing and window-all-over-the-place in Cubase should be history. I've not been able to have them confirmed though.

Do any of you guys know anything?

If not I must say, that this i possible my last version of Cubase. It's been a very nice journey for many many years.

But as seen so many times before - old reactionary companies wither and dies but makes room for new and more progressive companies with new takes on things.

Cheers from Denmark

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Keres
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Re: The Windows problem - any news?

Post by Keres » Fri Jun 17, 2011 6:32 am

Hi Maegin -

Just to remind me, and perhaps others, would you care to describe exactly what is happening in your case?

I don't seem to encounter any window resizing, or at least I don't think I do.
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LarsErik
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Re: The Windows problem - any news?

Post by LarsErik » Fri Jun 17, 2011 6:55 am

First off I don't think everyone sees the window handeling in Cubase as a problem. I know I don't.

However.. have you guys seen how the HALion4 UI can be customized into resizable panel containers for the different tools? This was introduced in WaveLab7, to some extent, and I'm guessing it's gonna end up in Cubase7.
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Re: The Windows problem - any news?

Post by crofter » Fri Jun 17, 2011 7:18 am

I never maximize the project window so this is never a problem for me, it's just about the way you work, Cubase windows work as designed.

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Re: The Windows problem - any news?

Post by Joan Cubaez » Fri Jun 17, 2011 8:03 am

Keres wrote:...would you care to describe exactly what is happening in your case?
E.g. the project window is at full size. Now I open the audio-pool (ctrl+P) & all of a sudden the project window jumps to a smaller size - with the effect that I need to maximize it in order to be able to see the zoom factor bar.

It`s nonsense to say Microsoft`s windows management or other programmes under MS Windows would behave in the same way...
crofter wrote:I never maximize the project window so this is never a problem for me, it's just about the way you work, Cubase windows work as designed.
Lucky you! For me (and I assume, for others, too) this is a problem!
Let`s say I want to open the key-editor while the project window is not at maximum size.
What happens is, neither the key-editor will show up at max size, once again with the effect that I need to maximize it in order to be able to see the zoom factor bar.

Kind of funny to talk about all those improvements in the workflow (which I do appreciate a lot!) while still facing such inconveniences in version 6.
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Re: The Windows problem - any news?

Post by More Cowbell » Fri Jun 17, 2011 8:34 am

I Agree 100 % I love Cubase. And version 6 has everything exept thoose damn windows problem. MR816 hardware window. Pool window. Key, drum editor take away my project maximized. Try use Media bay window and Loop Mash window side by side while having project maximized in Windows 7....
This has to be adressed and I think it will but i is probably a lot of new code to get right.

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Re: The Windows problem - any news?

Post by Bach » Fri Jun 17, 2011 9:14 am

Well, Cubase is absolutely stable here and I was amazed of how well it performed since version 6.0.
I was however deeply frustrated when I realized that the windows resizing problem was not solved even on this mature version.

This problem always makes me be afraid to open the key editor, open the wave editor, because once I do this, I can never be sure if the main project window will stay intact or if it will get resized to gigantic proportions and I will have to resize it manually by dragging the sidebars and resizing. This takes time and it is frustratingly annoying.

For me a GUI redesign that cures these issues should be no.1 Steinberg's priority and if not on a large update, then surely in a next maintenance update.
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Re: The Windows problem - any news?

Post by Joan Cubaez » Mon Jun 20, 2011 1:14 pm

Another example:

just 2 days ago I opened the audio-pool window. It showed up full size. As soon as I tried to reduce the window size (in order to "drag & drop" a wav-file onto an audio-track) the project window vanished completely. It had been minimized & I "found" it on the bottom left side above the task bar. I tried this 3 times, then I gave up & imported the file via media bay which works excellently....

I bet, in version 11 Steinberg will have developed a built-in sampler, a time & space stretch function & a laser-show plug-in to accompany all our musical creations but they still won`t have fixed that window resizing problem...

Steinberg, be glad that this is a damn good programme otherwise I´d ....oh well....

JC
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Re: The Windows problem - any news?

Post by Conman » Mon Jun 20, 2011 1:19 pm

Workspaces. Swot they're there for.

Don't look back.
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Re: The Windows problem - any news?

Post by MarkE » Mon Jun 20, 2011 1:52 pm

Works perfectly for me as it is at the moment. It also works as it was intended to. Going to a dockable windows scheme, like Halion 4, would be a bad move AFAIC.

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Re: The Windows problem - any news?

Post by Patanjali » Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:06 pm

Yes, setting up Workspaces seems to tame the changes.

But I see some windows momentarilly drop out of full screen until the Workspaces police get them back in order.
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Re: The Windows problem - any news?

Post by raino » Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:20 pm

When I get the dialog window asking where I want to create a new project, the "OK" button is always below the bottom of my monitor. So I have to drag before I hit OK. But the window always returns to the bad location the next time.
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Re: The Windows problem - any news?

Post by fried brains » Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:56 pm

+1 here ! window sizing thing is a primitive waiste of time - i came from ableton - if i set window full 1 time LEAVE IT LIKE THAT!!! NO MORE SIZING EVER IN THE SAME PROJECT!!!
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Re: The Windows problem - any news?

Post by Rev2010 » Mon Jun 20, 2011 9:11 pm

fried brains wrote:+1 here ! window sizing thing is a primitive waiste of time - i came from ableton - if i set window full 1 time LEAVE IT LIKE THAT!!! NO MORE SIZING EVER IN THE SAME PROJECT!!!
Not sure I understand. Coming from being another person complaining about the window issue, I will say that I don't have much problem once setting everything up. The windows for each item seem to exhibit the same behavior each time - ie. if I place and size a mixer or project window and close it then reopen it it's the same size and position as before.

What I would reeeeally love is a friggin "LOCK" of some form for position, though this may be a Windows limitation. In other words, I use dual monitors and have everything setup precisely the way I want it. Cubase is stretched across both monitors and everything is positioned the way I want. I have my default project already setup so edit windows open the way I want and to the position I want. It works great this way.......

.....

.......... until I accidentally click the mouse while moving over something and screw it all up!! I can't tell you guys how many times I went to click File or Audio and accidentally moved the Project window or the main Cubase window and had to sit there and precisely move it back to where it was, perfectly aligned. Same thing with the mixers and VST device window. A "lock in place", if it's even possible in Windows, would be totally awesome so I can't ever accidentally move things I don't want to without unlocking it first.


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Re: The Windows problem - any news?

Post by raino » Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:08 pm

Rev2010 wrote:
fried brains wrote:A "lock in place", if it's even possible in Windows, would be totally awesome so I can't ever accidentally move things I don't want to without unlocking it first.
I haven't used them for several versions, but I seem to remember that you can lock workspaces.
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Re: The Windows problem - any news?

Post by Mr M » Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:20 am

raino wrote:
Rev2010 wrote:
fried brains wrote:A "lock in place", if it's even possible in Windows, would be totally awesome so I can't ever accidentally move things I don't want to without unlocking it first.
I haven't used them for several versions, but I seem to remember that you can lock workspaces.

I have the same resizing problem that the OP outlines and workspaces does nothing here. I can set a workspace when I start working and within an hour after a few clicks on it ,it reverts to nothing ; meaning that opening another window besides the maximized Project window resizes the Project window and there is no longer that workspace.

All I want is a Project window that stays maximized NO MATTER WHAT.
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Re: The Windows problem - any news?

Post by Chris Beuermann » Tue Jun 21, 2011 9:48 am


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Re: The Windows problem - any news?

Post by Joan Cubaez » Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:09 pm

Chris Beuermann wrote:https://www.steinberg.net/en/support/kn ... ]=Multiple Monitor Support
broken link???
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Re: The Windows problem - any news?

Post by Chris Beuermann » Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:20 pm

Yep,

something went wrong. Here is the correct one

https://www.steinberg.net/en/support/kn ... %20Support

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Re: The Windows problem - any news?

Post by Grim » Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:04 pm

Joan Cubaez wrote:broken link???
Which would hardly matter considering it's lack of useful information regarding the topic being discussed. :roll:
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Re: The Windows problem - any news?

Post by Centralmusic » Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:19 pm

Bach wrote: For me a GUI redesign that cures these issues should be no.1 Steinberg's priority and if not on a large update, then surely in a next maintenance update.
Before that - I think it's more important that the mixer receives a new redesign (you know what I mean...!)
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Re: The Windows problem - any news?

Post by mink » Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:48 pm

Hoi,

As I have read in the press (not tested yet) WaveLab has a new UI-Manger. This one could easily be reused for Cubase.

But the solution could be much easier:

The problem with the flipping, and resizing windows and un-maximizing windows is not a windows limitation (as it was mentioned before in this thread) and is not the default behaviour of windows-applications but seems to be an incorrect use of the MDI pattern under windows.

It is correct and expected behaviour that if an MDI child is maximized, and a second MDI child is opened the maximized child will be unmaximized. This behaviour can perfectly be seen in older versions of Paint Shop Pro.
It is not correct and unexpected behaviour that if an MDI child is maximized, and a dialog is opened the maximized child will be unmaximized. The correct behaviour can also be seen in older versions of Paint Shop Pro.

The problem is a different opinion between the users and the developers at steinberg, which elements are defined as MDI-children and which are dialogs. The difference between these is that MDI children cannot be moved outside of their parent window, whild dialogs can.

The users understand the "D" in MDI as a "D"ocument, which is a project main window. This is also the Microsoft Definition of MDI. Nothing else should be a "document".

The implemented behaviour is quite different. Every window is created as a MDI-child, and the "always on top" option changes the window to a dialog

These settings (whether the to-be-created window is a dialog or a MDI child) are defined in the Windows API as a simple parameter :

Code: Select all

HWND WINAPI CreateWindowEx(
  __in      DWORD dwExStyle,   <<- WS_EX_MDICHILD makes this window a MDI-CHILD
  __in_opt  LPCTSTR lpClassName,
  __in_opt  LPCTSTR lpWindowName,
  __in      DWORD dwStyle,
  __in      int x,
  __in      int y,
  __in      int nWidth,
  __in      int nHeight,
  __in_opt  HWND hWndParent,
  __in_opt  HMENU hMenu,
  __in_opt  HINSTANCE hInstance,
  __in_opt  LPVOID lpParam
);


Simply removing this flag on every window except the project main window should cure most of the GUI-Problems.
I dont see this change as "too expensive"


Mink

Soryy for this nerdish tech talk, but I feel much better now :shock:

To be correct, if I talk about dialogs, these can also be implementd as independent (non-MDI) child windows....

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Re: The Windows problem - any news?

Post by More Cowbell » Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:28 am

Mink > You are my hero!

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Re: The Windows problem - any news?

Post by Conman » Wed Jun 22, 2011 2:01 am

Interesting mink. thank you.
Have you any insight into why some get this, some dont't and some, like me, get it only occasionally (and that only on new Cubase versions that seems to cease after some useage)?

Got me curious now.
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Re: The Windows problem - any news?

Post by JClosed » Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:02 am

Hmmm... Well this one bites me every time again. For some windows it can be cured by configuring them to be "always on top", but for some reason this does not work with all windows (some cannot be configured to be "always on top" at all)...

I am using Cubase 6 Artist and was thinking about upgrading to the full Cubase 6 version. But, to be honest, I am not sure any longer. This sudden (and most times not anticipated) resizes are in some cases extremely annoying, and can bring a smooth session to a screeching halt. Oherwise - when you keep the main window not full but always resized, you get a totally useless titlebar that is eating up valuable space (and can be easily dragged by accident if you doing some fast menu configurations).

This is a shame, because Cubase 6 is really a great program. I am still pleased with it, but -until this issue is solved- I am not using it as my main DAW...

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